Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

What do you guys think, would this be a valid argument for tithers?

"Also notice Gen 14 the bible said Abram gave not paid tithe. There is a diffrence. The word PAID would seem to be under a obligation to pay. But abraham gave to melchizadec freely for winning the battle. He Thanked God for helping him win the battle."

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Tithing is a consecration, something you have set aside unto God. Its not a requirement. Similar to the Nazarite Vow like Paul did in Acts or voluntary fasting or sexual celebicy which is mentioned in the epistles as consecrations.

If you keep it that context it makes those who tithe feel positive about what they do without making them a "better" christian than those who don't tithe. Its a personal decision.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

While I think this is really a matter of semantics, I do prefer the term "giving tithes" rather than "paying tithes". The later seems to imply one "pays tithes" out of obligation, rather than "giving tithes" out of a willing and giving heart. I do believe "giving tithes" is God's way of financing the work of the church, and Christians should "give cheerfully". If one fails to give cheerfully, but does so with the attitude that he or she is under some obligation to "pay tithes", I don't think this is very pleasing to the Lord.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Thanks for the clarity.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Stick around AFF... you'll change alot over time just hy learning more about the bible from different points of view.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Yes thanks

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

interesting. using this type of understanding comparisons(tithing/nazarite/celebicy)...how do you explain the texts that say the tithe "belongs" to God? is this "belongs" used in the sense that everything in the universe belongs to God as creator-rights?

also...i think there were some who were told they had to be Nazarites(no choice)...how does this work with tithing.

please do not read any setup/argument/debate into these questions.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

In the Old Testament it was mandatory for Jews to pay tithes to support the priesthood.

The Early Church didn't tithe 10% of their gross.. it wasnt until the Apostolic Constitutions that it was mentioned for Christians at all. Acts says they gave as they were able as did several church fathers.

Slaves couldn't give anything since their masters didn't allow them a wage and it would be silly to require it.

Tithing is a consecration... its a choice and theres a blessing in deciding to do it.. but theres no condemnation for a gentile not to tithe. Even the counsel of Jerusalem in Acts didn't mention it.

Also there are Old Testaments on HOW the tithe is handled by the tribe of Levi and the priesthood... but after asking about a dozen of my fellow ministers and pastors about honoring it they all either professed ignorance to the verses since its never taught on... or they flipped back and said we aren't under OT laws... which kind of kills their line of logic on collecting tithes anyhow.

Justin, c. A.D. 150

The wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together. We bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit for all things with which we are supplied.
On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place. … They who are well-to-do—and willing—give what each thinks fit. What is collected is deposited with the president, who helps the orphans and widows, those who through sickness or any other cause are in need, and those who are in prison and the strangers sojourning among us. In a word he takes care of all who are in need. (First Apology 67)

Irenaeus, c. A.D. 185

(The Jews) consecrated the tithes of their goods to Him, but those who have received liberty set aside all their possessions for the Lord’s purposes. They bestow joyfully and freely even the more valuable portion of their property, since they have the hope of better things, like that poor widow who cast all her living into the treasury of God. (Against Heresies IV:18:2)

Tertullian, c. A.D. 200

There is no buying and selling of any sort in the things of God. Though we have our treasure chest, it is not made up of purchase money, as of a religion that has its price.
On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation, but only if it be his pleasure and only if he be able. For there is no compulsion, all is voluntary.
These gifts are, as it were, piety’s deposit fund. For they are not taken from ther and spent on feasts, drinking bouts, and eating houses. They are to support and bury poor people, to supply the needs of boys and girls destitute of means and parents and of old persons confined now to the house.
They also benefit such, too, as have suffered shipwreck. And if there happen to be any in the mines, banished to the islands, or shut up in the prisons for nothing but their fidelity to the cause of God’s Church; they become the nurslings of their confession. (Apology 39)

See... if your going to hell for not paying tithes so is all of the early church :)



also heres a good Wikipedia article on tithing.. here is a excerpt to clarify the multiple tithes and what they were for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes#...tament_origins

In the time of Moses and Under Mosaic Law
The tithe is specifically mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, the Book of Numbers and also in the Book of Deuteronomy. The tithing system was organized in a 7 year cycle, corresponding to the Shemittah cycle. Every year, Bikkurim, Terumah, Ma'aser Rishon and Terumat Ma'aser were separated from the grain, wine and oil (as regards other fruit and produce, the Biblical requirement to tithe is a source of debate). Deuteronomy 14:22 Unlike other offerings which were restricted to consumption within the tabernacle, the yearly tithe to the Levites could be consumed anywhere (Numbers 18:31-14). On years one, two, four and five of the Shemittah cycle, God commanded the Children of Israel to take a second tithe that was to be brought to the city of Jerusalem. Deuteronomy 14:23 The owner of the produce was to separate and bring 1/10 of his finished produce to Jerusalem after separating Terumah and the first tithe, but if the family lived too far from Jerusalem, the tithe could be redeemed upon coins. Deuteronomy 14:23Then, the Bible required the owner of the redeemed coins to spend the tithe "to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish." Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Implicit in the commandment was an obligation to spend the coins on items meant for human consumption. According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the second tithe could be brought to Jerusalem any time of the year and there was no specific obligation to bring the second tithe to Jerusalem for the Festival of Sukkot. The only time restriction was a commandment to remove all the tithes from one's house in the end of the third year. Deuteronomy 14:28
The third year was called "the year of tithing" Deuteronomy 26:12-14 in which the Israelites set aside 10% of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.
The Levites, also known as the tribe of Levi, were descendants of Levi. They were assistants to the Israelite priests (who were the children of Aaron and, therefore,a subset of the Tribe of Levi) and did not own or inherit a territorial patrimony Numbers 18:21-28. Their function in society was that of temple functionaries, teachers and trusted civil servants who supervised the weights and scales and witnessed agreements. The goods donated from the other Israeli tribes were their source of sustenance. They received from "all Israel" a tithe of food or livestock for support, and in turn would set aside a tenth portion of that tithe for the Aaronic priests in Jerusalem.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

OneAccord! You need to get that computer fixed. We ain't been in OneAccord since you've been missing on AFF. Hurry back. We need OneAccord! lol

BeenThinkin

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

In Hebrews chapter 7, it says Avram "gave" a tithe (verses 2 and 4) and "paid" a tithe (verse 9).

In Matthew 23:23 Jesus uses the term "pay tithe" and in Luke 18:12 the self-righteous Pharisee said he "gave tithes."

Seems like the terms are used interchangeably.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Do Jews today pay or give tithes? If so, why, if no, why not?

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

There is no text anywhere to suggest that Abraham paid (or gave) tithes from his own possessions. See Genesis 14:23-24!

Hebrews 7 uses the "tithing" of the King of Sodom's goods to Melchizedek to establish the fact that Jesus Christ' priesthood is superior (or "better") than the Levitical priesthood established under the Law.

Nowhere does the Bible ever say that Abraham paid a tithe of his own possessions or the increase on those possessions.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

I work with a lot of Jews in my insurance office (about 20 of them). I've asked them about it. Typically synagogues will raise funds from a combination of pledges, planned giving like money left in wills and mandatory offerings on the high holy days like the Day of Atonement.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Sounds like the answer is no then. Now that is interesting indeed. To whom the tithes basically originated do not do it today but we do. Interesting. Are they robbing God?

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Most Jews that I have spoken to about tithing will point out that these commandments all related to the support of the Tabernacle and later, the Temple in Jerusalem.

Without a Temple today there is no reason for the tithe. They are not "robbing God" if there are no "storehouses" in the House of God ("mine house..." See Malachi 3:10) and no "House of God" at all.

Therefore, for today's Jew all giving is related to the commands not specifically related to the Temple and its service (like the High Holy Days APO mentioned) and other gifts to support Jewish causes, education, benevolences and etc.

Also, depending upon the Jewish sect the individual belongs to (Reformed, Orthodox, Hasidim, etc.) there are literally mountains of Talmudic and traditional teachings that explain just what is to be given in lieu of the old agricultural practices of redeeming the first born animal and all of the rest.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

I would like to add that for curiosity reasons, I called some synogauges in my area and ask them to they still tithe like in the OT times. One lady acctually didn't know what I was even talking about hahahah ah aha. I tried to explain again to her and told her I was christian and she said no they don't tithe but If you would like to give a donation that would be fine.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Calling up churches and synagogues for answers is a lot like asking questions on the Internet! http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif

You never know who's going to pick up or what they might say.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

correct.... if anything it was spoils of war and a thank offering of which was for political reasons. Even could have been mutual agreement. Still not tithes like many want it to mean.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

I think tithes and offerings are a good Biblical standard.
Abraham gave these things freely and so did everyone else when they gave a tenth of the spoils.

I believe personally that Jesus required these things in the law because He held everyone up to the standard of what those who did it as a heart gesture did.

If we can't do from the heart giving without being threatened from pulpits then how can we make it to heaven?
Tithing is for immature Christians. Mature Christians give sacrificially.They have already gotten passed the I have to mentality and grown into the I want to do all I can mindset.

Mature Christians don't worry about how much it is but pray about giving as much as they can to the cause of Jesus Christ.

In most of our cases its at a local assembly because that is where we work in the Gospel. Its keeping on the electricity and paying for the heat.

Its giving so hopefully the ministry staff can work reaching the lost full time. Just some thoughts. I am seeking to have more of an Abraham heart in giving to Jesus in more than one area. Money is only a small part.

We have to give in other areas such as our time and our gifts etc.

It is very immature to assume that the place where you go to fellowship and where someone willingly shares the Word with you is going to exist
without you contributing to paying the bills.

Children take for granted all their blessings. I know of families who have lost jobs and things they took for granted who have come to the knowledge that they should have taken more responsibility. These are things those who are mature know about and consider. Immature people
don't even think about the bills or responsibilities. That is why we need to get past the basics first before we can teach others.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

The tithe was to support the Temple priesthood and Levites and to feed the poor. Since there is no Temple and priesthood the need for that part of the tithe is gone. The need to feed and care for the widows, single parent families, and the poor is still with us but there are other ways to do this.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

Sam what are some of the ways you were thinking of? We could all use some good ideas.

Re: Abraham Gave not Paid Tithes
 

I don't have any new ideas.

There are government programs like WIC and the food stamp program.

In the Cincinnati area we have places where people can go for food and a place to stay. Also, there are places that provide meals on different days of the week. And, we have a place called the Free Store where people come for food. Also, some of our churches have food pantries.