Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

As far as false doctrine and imminent threats to the church goes... Do you think "Magic Hair" is an Achilles Heel of sorts?

For me, concerns about HMH "holy magic hair" is not at the top of the list.

I am far more concerned about radical sectarianism in the UPC.

We have evolved into something of a group that has difficulty seeing the work of Christ outside the Oneness Pentecostal movements.

Among the Oneness Pentecostals we even ostracize those who share the views of many of our founders on salvation.

The language and interpretation of the AOF also reflect this.

We reject those "Charismatics" yet many of our teachers still embrace teachings that we should have outgrown by now. How many are teaching

"God does not want you to be sick"?

or

"God wants to bless you with wealth"?

or

"You can have whatever you want tonight!"?

How many teach that they absolutely know the will of God in these things, and the missing component is simply the individuals faith?

Where is the sovereignty of God in all this?

Re: More Important Than the HMH Debate
 

hmmm I think you will be picking a fight with many denoms on this not just the UPCI... doctrine divides most of the time as it is the nature of it.

Re: More Important Than the HMH Debate
 

No doubt. I am only mentioning the denomination because that is my primary exposure.

Re: More Important Than the HMH Debate
 

gotcha... :thumbsup

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I agree with you Hoovie.

For some, however, I think the whole woman's hair thing has become one of the key points in defining the radical sectarianism. People have been aggressively pushing this sectarian agenda ever since the merger and the sectarian extremists have had the upper hand.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Hoovie,

It is clear you have "gone charismatic". I was reared UPC and we were always right and everybody else was always wrong.

My favorite boegyman was how we would proclaim that trinitarians were just stuck in their traditions, living their parents and grandparents religion, when in fact no group of people has ever been more bound to traditions than UPC folks.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I see the HMH issue as a means actually of an "us vs them" mindset.

It says "Our women are speshul, yours are not. Ladies you are speshul, stay in the boat or you'll lose the glory of God". Not only does it contribute to sectarianism but it's being used as coercion to reinforce the uncut hair doctrine and create a momma's boy church

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

My mind goes to one of my daughters - ten yr old... yesterday she shared with us that she is being considered for a church "club" and was going to give a speech to try and "get in". She asked if she could practice on us and we agreed. She first listed all the qualities, service and talents she brought with her... then ended it by saying... "Just in case this has not convinced you... may I remind you Jesus instructs you to love everyone. Not letting me in your club would not be showing me love would it?" :ursofunny

They let her in!

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

This has been my experience as well. It's certainly nothing new.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

That it's been that way for many in recent decades, does not make it any less harmful or without the need for reform.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

True.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Actually CC1, A healthy skepticism of "charismatics" is one very good thing the UPC has given me. Just not on the basis of salvation. Aside from questioning whether Charismatics are "saved" I have many questions for what has defined the Charismatic movement.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Let's start the 'CYH' movement within Oneness Pentecostal movements.

As in 'Cut your hair' cause it does not make a difference in the will of God, the power of God, the Glory of God, the Baptism of God, the Anointing of God, the Favor of God, the Blessing of God, the Principal of God, the Grace of God, the Mercy of God nor the Heart of God. It does not increase the power behind a woman's faith, it does not increase the power of the Blood of the Cross, it does not move Angels, it does not cause demons to flee, it has never healed anyone. It simply is a glory to her, in terms of how we would say it in plain English today... good for her!

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I think that would simply be a pendulum swing. While I don't see the "magic" I do believe uncut hair qualifies as "long" and it's an acceptable way to view the passage.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I was thinking this myself.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Once the hair is cut it can therefore never there after be long. Does God grant repentance from cut to then become uncut once again to restore long? Just cut it and repent and it would then be long again in between cuttings! The uncut being long is a outmoded precept inline with the Affirmation statement that most ignore after they sign it.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Hmm....lets see. Most of the big televangelist scandlals were actually by
AOG ministers (Jimmy Swagart & Jim Bakker) so the Charismatics escape that particular definement. Not to say they have not had their share though with the likes of Bishop Earl Paulk who not only was a womanizer but fathered a child by his brothers wife no less.

The Charismatics have also left themselves plenty of room for criticism in what defines them by the excesses of the so called "prosperity" preachers who turned the gospel into a get rich quick scheme and then the wacko's going around preaching about "holy laughter" and other such non biblical things.

Just like most things in life you have to wade through the chaff to find the gold. There are plenty of balanced charismatic churches who do present the gospel accurately and work to disciple people for Christ.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Yeah, just saying I am skeptical of most all who "made a name" for themselves...

Hinn, Tilton, Copeland, Terello, Crouch, White, Hickey et all.


PS when was the last time you rebuked the sickness devil, spoke to your wallet and declared yourself healthy and wealthy? Perhaps you need if good ole fashioned OBE.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I see that too I guess. HMH is simply one of the current tools...

The greatest and most devastating tool though is the one that says we have the special revelation and correct doctrine, and unless you come to Christ our way you have false experience.

Once we acknowledge Christ is in our fellow Christians, not because of, but in spite of our differences, then a lot of other stuff becomes less pivotal as well.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

They all started off Pentecostal, at least in name. Crouch was or is AOG

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I don't think they are now... they have "outgrown" them. :spit

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

If there is magic in the long uncut hair of a woman then how come no one is taking the clippings from the men and sprinkling them on the sick so they can recover? Would not the vow and commitment to short hair have the same power for a man? This whole Magic hair doctrine is nothing more than a smoke screen of hope to feed the woman of the UPCI so they have a reason for looking like they stepped out of the Sear's catalog from 1890.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Most of them boast Pentecostal roots and all still speak in tongues and consider themselves charismatic pentecostal without a denomination label. Former UPCI men are numerous in their rank and file.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

These things bother me as well. For one thing, they show a real ignorance of the Bible and of the nature of God. I cringe when I hear things like those you have quoted.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

We have redefined almost everything according to the whim of leadership elected and appointed by men to rule over other men - it is called an organization that decides who is, and who is not, called of God into a given ministry. It is generally defined as a 'good old boy's club' or just a family tradition.

For example

Holiness is what we do, not who we are.

It is our standards that separate us from the world, not our attitudes.

Those things that pertain to a man are defined as his pants, not his weapons, tools, etc, that De 22:5 identifies in the Hebrew language. (Hint: The verse does not say that a woman is not to wear the clothes or garments of a man. I can supply a Hebrew world view translation for those interested.)

Worship is our performance in church, as judged by a church leader, not the context within which we live our lives

'Good preaching' is when we feel good and experience an emotional high, not in how well the message contributes to improving our walk in the Spirit or improve our relationship with Christ or bring unity to the body.

Contributing (giving) to God is maintaining the local church building (or another building fund), not meeting the needs of those who attend there.

Tithing is the basic law of the church, where as many people who attend the church (10, 20, 50, 100 or more) are to give 10% of their resources to one man. This is not the biblical principle where eleven extended families provided the food requirements of one extended family - who were prohibited by law from working for their food. Also, out of this came food for the poor and even the 'non-Jews' who needed assistance. One has to wonder how it would be received if each family in a church brought 10% of their groceries and piled them on the platform (or in the church storehouse) - normally three to four times a year - as required by the law? But, I digress -

The primary qualification for ministry within the assembly is based on the amount and frequency of one's giving, not the call of God or one's spiritual gifting for the edification of the body.

And, the list goes on....

We enjoy a performance based religion, rather than a love based relationship.

God, because of His promises, owes us whatever we want, rather than we owe everything to God, with or without His promises. That is, we follow after God for what we can get out of Him, rather than for what God can get out of us - obedience.

Spiritual obedience is obeying the pastor, and if God happens to agree, so much the better. Yet, Obedience to God is accomplished only by first gaining the pastor's permission.

We have the Holy Ghost, and 'it' (not 'Him') has lead us into all truth. Even so, most folks only give lip service to the Spirit's leading, and seldom, if ever, actually walk in that Spirit.

We think another discussion (preaching/teaching) on holiness standards, how misguided the Trinitarians are, and Acts 2:38 is bringing to light the three central themes of Christianity.

We think that being a committed Christian is being in church whenever the doors are open - and 'having church', rather than simply being the living church (body of Christ) in the world (living stones).

We claim to follow the teaching of the Apostles, but except for a hand full of notes from Paul and a couple from Peter and James, in a few letters, we don't even know what it was the rest of the Apostles actually taught. - Hint: They taught what Jesus taught and commanded His disciples to teach, and only a few Apostolics know what Jesus taught, and most of that is without understanding!

Most Pentecostals don't even know what the day of Pentecost is or even why its important to the Christian faith. The experience of speaking in tongues is more important than the reality of the event. So, we try to recapture the experience of Pentecost (the Church of the Holy Feel Good) without ever knowing its spiritual reality or how to apply it to our lives to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

Back to the Spirit: The Spirit will lead us in all truth - how many church members can you witness concerning that they actually know where the Spirit is leading and is, in fact, following Him? Hint: Don't take anyone's word for it - test it for yourself!

I'm tired. So finally, if the Oneness, Apostolic Pentecostals are the new chosen people of God, how come we are so powerless? Fragmented (separated from even those within the same religious organization)? Righteous in our own eyes (we are going to heaven, Trinitarians are going to hell)? WE have the truth and teach 'sound doctrine', while everyone else teaches false doctrines, and are going to hell because of it. The problem with that position is that I find every preacher I have ever studied under make errors in their teaching (including me!). Therefore, by our own confession we are all guilty of teaching false doctrines (any teaching that contains errors is, by definition, false). So, even our judgments against others stands before God as a witness against us.

It really is time that we stop playing the Pharisee of Mt 23, and start playing the role of a saint of God, as in 1 Cor 14.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

HaS! That is one powerful post. I wish you could preach this at large venues.

I would pay you my tithe... oh wait a min!! LOL!

Seriously, thank you.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

A follow up note:

Not all is lost. Just taking a look around this forum and one can see a growing number of individuals, and perhaps even families, who are trading their organizational security for a very demanding (challenging) relationship with Jesus Christ.

Now, there is a novel idea! Think it might catch on?

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Very good my friend very good..

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Thank you - but I think just preached it in a large venue. :smack And, the offering was right! :friend

Even so, I remain the forum's grumpy old mountain man. :grumpy

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

WoW. Just WoW!

Thanks for that!

Shout it from the mountaintops!

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

HaShaliach,
Thank you for that great post

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Yes, HaS great post!

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

The HMH debate is much easier to see and debate than the conceptual argument you bring up, ;)

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Mercy! I guess I need to post something on the other side of the religious coin. LOLOL

Take a good look around the Internet and even your own church. We can find many individuals who are willing to both 'live' in the Spirit as well as 'walk' in the Spirit. And, who are willing to -

Stop making themselves 'look good' by comparing themselves to others and judging those others harshly. I am not talking about forsaking the required identification of sin and those who engage in it, rather it is the attempt at making one's self appear to be more holy, righteous, or spiritual at the expense of someone else's lack of knowledge or having a different experience of God than 'I' have.

There are many who now question the teaching they receive, and like the men of Berea. They are no longer content to receive the 'party line', they want to search out the scriptures to see if what they are being taught is true. Can one make the scriptures say anything one desires for it to say? Absolutely. As an exercise I presented a short teaching (doctrine) using only the scriptures, to 'prove' that it was God's intent that each man was to leave his mother and father, take his new wife, along with his inlaws to another planet, and start a nudest colony.

What we have before us today are a number of doctrines that are established on a few, very selective passages, that many are starting to question. For example, what about all of those scriptures the 'suggest' that God is not monolithic in structure or composition (A sampling: John 20:17, 1 Corinthians 15:21-29 & Revelation 5:6-10? Why are all of the scriptures that impact our understand of who and what Jesus is not presented? What are our leaders afraid of? Yet, we see folks who actually studying their Bibles and seeking after the face of God (Philippians 2:12 & 2 Timothy 2:15), for the man of God is that man who seeks after Him, not just some one one who stands on a platform.

Now, like my original posting this is just a sampling of my thoughts, and in spite of the first list, why I have hope for the future of the body of Christ. There is much more that gives reason for hope, as people start to see that storing up treasures in heaven means sowing one's own life into the lives of others. This is the treasure that shall survive the trial by fire, not money, not buildings, nor religious positions or titles, etc. One hint: Matthew 25:31-46.

When the entire church of Christ does not come together in a unified body, then Christ remains fractured into many different parts. Even so - beware of the one who would bring that body into unity under/by his direction and teaching. Please continue to question everything - take nothing at face value, test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5), and don't take the judgments of others too seriously. Follow after Jesus alone and keep your conscience clear before Him, and He shall sustain us all (Jude 1:20-24). Amen.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Thanks kids - Now, study the word! LOLOL :thumbsup

It seems like I never take the easy way. Always have to make it hard on myself, and on occasion, for others as well. <sigh>

But, if I can get just a few folks to study the word for themselves - even the languages - so one might better understand why the translators did what they did in attempting to make the biblical languages understandable to the English speaking world, then I think I have done my job.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I like this.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Thread's like this are why I still check in here. Good thought-provoking conversations.

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

Please continue being the "grumpy old mountain man," I would rather hear this wisdom than the rhetoric of many who claim to speak "truth."

Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?
 

I think I am guilty of thread stealing. :hijacked -- :sorry Never meant to do that.

:grampa