Thinking of Leaving the UPC
 

Hi everybody. I'm new here.

I attend a UPC church, and have for years, and for months now, I have been becoming increasingly disturbed with several of the doctrines that they teach, as well as several doctrines that are held by the majority of other Oneness Pentecostal organizations, since they contradict what I see when I open up my Bible. (However, I still DO believe in the Oneness of God, and in the Acts 2:38 message.) I would like to leave, but I do not know where to go to, or even for that matter, who to talk to. That is why I am starting this thread. Perhaps some of you have some suggestions on what you think I should do.

Keep in mind that I do not wish to debate specific theological topics on this thread since it is just going to side track the conversation away from where I intend on it going. Also keep in mind that I do not wish to read a bunch of stuff bashing the UPC, especially from Trinitarians.

Thanks in advance for all of your suggestions.

Oh boy....

The Conservatives are gonna say that what you need to do is repent.

The Liberals are going to say that what you need to do is get outta dodge.

Others are gonna come in and wonder if you are really new, or an exisiting poster who wants to post with annonymity or someone who just wants to mess with us.

And Coop will most likely start a poll entitled "Should religious nut leave the UPC?"

And for the record, I will just be stopping by occasionally to make funny comments :)

can you tell what it is you don't agree with? anything other than Acts 2:38, oneness of God and baptism in Jesus name, I dont consider "doctrine"

Unless you mean some of those thing I couldnt begin to understand like Divine flesh doctrine, some things regarding end time..that sort of thing..

but if you mean "outward standards of dress"...that isnt doctrine...

and shouldnt be a reason to leave a church that teaches "truth"...just follow your heart on the "non" doctrine issues..IMO

I will name you two of them:

I do not believe in a literal future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth

I do not believe that it is possible for someone who is truely saved to fall away and lose their salvation, and that those who fall away were never saved to begin with

Sounds like your mixing your beliefs....

It starts as once saved always saved... and then you deny the same...

No I am not mixing my beliefs. The doctrine of the Preserverance of the Saints, aka eternal security or once saved always saved, teaches that someone truely saved will never fall away and lose their salvation. Therefore, those who fall away were never truely saved to begin with.

John 15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Even the Apostle Paul said that he did not want to be a castaway after preaching to others.

It is all about choice.

So basically you believe once saved... always saved? Correct?

I am very well aware of the proof texts that people use to refute eternal security and do not want to get into a back and forth debate on it on this particualr thread. I will probably start a thread on this topic some time down the road and we can talk about John 15 and other passages like it on there. I started this thread to get advice as to what I should do since I do not agree with the UPC on several doctrines such as this one, not to debate theological topics.

Can we have some background on yourself?

How long have you been a believer?

How long have you been attending the local UPC church?

Lots of folks don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. Some believe that the Kingdom and only Kingdom is right now and there is no future Kingdom. Others believe that there is a spiritual kingdom right now and those folks will be raptured and that there will be a future literal kingdom on earth after Jesus returns with His saints. Whether that kingdom is a literal 1000 literal years or if that is some kind of a figurative number or not is something not agreed upon. I don't see how this would be a cause for leaving the UPC.

As far as "eternal security" or "predestination" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) there are differences of opinion among Oneness Pentecostals on this. I think there is a Canadian organization of Oneness and Trinitarians that teach this. I think the name of the group is ACOP (Apostolic Churches of Canada) but I may have the name wrong.

You may be able to hold those opinions and still get along fine within a local church. But some of that may depend on how dogmatic you and/or your pastor is on these beliefs. You may just be able to agree to disagree and not make it an issue.

I'll have to agree with Sam. The 1000 reign is hardly a staple of Oneness teaching and preaching. It may be some people's bread and butter, but personally, I have not heard it that much. I would have no problem with someone in the church I pastor not believing in the 1000 yr reign.

Now as far as the eternal security thing goes, I teach that our salvation is secure...however, I also teach that we can walk away from God, turn our backs on Him and be lost. I am also more concerned about people walking with God and having a relationship with Him than I am about them being able to cross all the "T's" and dot all the "I's" of soteriological issues.

If someone wants to come in and try to "convert" everyone to "their" way of seeing things and declare that we are all wrong, then we're going to have a serious issue. That is blatant disrespect of the church and the ministry. Respectful dialogue, however, is always welcomed and proper.

I probably should give some backround on myself. I attended a non-Oneness church before I became Oneness, started attending a Oneness church a little less than five years ago, and have been saved for over four years. Since then, for various reasons I have been studying the Bible emphatically, especially doctrine. In my studies, I have come to a belief in some things that differ from UPC teaching.

The question is, will you find a place that believes exactly what you believe?

and do you have a family?

I do not consider these two issues, and others, to be trivial for several reasons. First, I feel the call to be involved in the ministry in some way, shape or form, and to do so in the UPC, I would have to agree to the articles of faith, and I do not. Second, even though I do not necessarily believe that someone needs to believe exactally the way I do to be saved, the Bible warns us about false doctrine. Third, from my experience, Oneness Pentecostals do tend to be very staunch premillenialists, and staunchly against eternal security. Fourthly, the type of Palagian, "live right to prepare yourself for heaven," works salvation, that is often, but not always associated with denying the doctrine of eternal security, is extremely widespread in Oneness circles, and I do believe it to be "another gospel" based upon my study of scripture.

Maybe I should have clarified myself. I understand we all have some non-negotiables as far as doctrine. I cannot condone anything outside of Acts 2:38 New Birth message as legitamate, or the provision of healing. Those we cannot let go. But there are some points of doctrine that I have no problem attanding churches that do not see it the way I see it.

I think IF you can find a church that teaches your core doctrines, and not worry about the others, you are doing good. (Not that I agree with the doctrines you have stated :D)

As far as my mentioning family, I know the importance of raising my kids in a Godly atmosphere that includes regular church attendance.

You have to find out what is more important to you.

I attend a UPC church even though I don't agree with the standards they teach, however, since the core doctrine is something I believe with all my heart, and no other church in my area preaches it, then I attend there.

If they have a problem with my wearing pants, God will have to help them get over that. I don't go to church based on what they wear, they shouldn't be concerned with what I'm wearing.

To most churches who preach it, it is indeed 'doctrine'.

I don't know if you are tying in the first part of the sentence with the second, but but bolded part alone can indeed happen. If one chooses to leave God and live a life of sin, they are no longer saved. This doesn't mean they can't come back and ask forgiveness, but according to the Bible, there are people who left and were lost.

However, if what you are saying is that people believe that those who left weren't saved to begin with, I also don't agree with that idea.

Some of the doctrinal differences that you discussed are problematic if you want to continue being a oneness Pentecostal even outside of the UPC, there are no Pentecostal churches that I know of that embrace eternal security or don't believe if the responsiblity of the believer to respond to the grace of God by living a life of obedience.

From the things you describe in this post you may want to start your own church. I know of no group of folks that would believe everything that you seemto espouse here.

Also, other than just telling you to go ahead and leave the UPC there is not much to be said since you stated you do ont want to make this a theological discussion.

you are true here Keith. Hebrews 6:6 Says....
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Religious Nut, for starters I am not UPC. It was discussed on other threads about needing to respeak in tongues if you have fallen away and come back. You may not but repentance should be a day to day to day thing. Paul said he died daily. We all need to kill ourselves everyday. But believing a once saved vein is not exactly right I think. But I will tell you this God is a BIG God. He is filled with GREAT Grace and MOUNTAINS of Mercy.

You will find out there are alot of people on AFF here that does not feel all cuddles and smiles about the UPC. Enjoy the ride

Is there any Ex-UPC Pastors or another one God church near by?

All I know is.....I went through the same thing right Along with my Pastor and about half or more of my old UPC church.

I was thinking the same things before I even knew that my pastor was re-thinking UPC doctrines.

But at that time; I was fighting those thoughts and thought I was back-sliding.

But the Lord moved me away 1700 miles from my old church.

Our family visited the UPC churches here in Amarillo, but we knew it was not what God had for us.

If you should leave, it is a happy/sad kind of thing....and you will never be the same.

Follow after God........

Follow after God....

Let God lead you.....not man......not me...nor anyone else....

Jesus is your God and he is the way, the truth and the Life.

PS: Religious Nut.....God is breaking hard religious nuts every day. It's all good.

I myself could easily dismiss these as secondary issues, though I know some would disagree.

To me, they are secondary issues. I left the UPC for other reasons....

Join the Branhamites they teach unconditional eternal security but embrace the 1000 year reign.

LOL. My parents had friends who got into Branhamitism in the 70's... hadn't thought about that in years. Is there much of that still going on?

Hi~I've not read all the post~ I think a few member here could help you find what your looking for and they are pastors. Good luck in your search ....;)

1. ManOfWord (pastor)

2. AtlantaBishop (pastor)

Have a nice eternity.

Nut,

Sounds like you want to be a Bapticostal. When traveling to North Carolina I have actually seen some "Baptist Pentecostal" churches. They might be right for you.

On a serious note if your only gripes with the UPC are esoteric and do not impact your salvation why leave?

I do have to say I have a hard time undrestanding the once saved always saved stance. I believe our salvation is a lot more secure than 99% of UPC folks but I certainly don't believe you cannot fall away. That is called free will.

Where did you get that number?

Educated guess based on 48 years in or around the UPC and my beautiful framed Theological degree from a UPC Bible College!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:coffee2

Dear CupCake

Where did I ever "wonder why people leave"?

Your reply came across as cold and hashed~ If I mistook it I'm sorry~

Originally Posted by Old Paths
Have a nice eternity.

Whatever you do be careful with how you bring this up to the folks in your church. It will not be leaving Dodge.

You will be shot out of Dodge.

Please try to not be so judgemental in the future.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means that he thinks your UPC church will be JUDGEMENTAL, MEAN, VISCIOUS, TOTALLY UNFORGIVING and YOU WILL BE EX-COMMUNICATE POST HASTE.

or

On the other hand he could be talking about is an old Gun Smoke/Dodge City radio program that he heard on XM.