What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bible?
 

I was reading the thread earlier about public rebuke and wondered what everyone would think about this scenario.

There is a couple who had questions concerning endtimes. They asked their pastor over to discuss it. They showed him Bible and asked what he felt was the answer. He held an entirely different opinion than theirs. He felt the rapture was pre-trib.
He then told them not to come back to his church because he was not able to be their pastor. They were very faithful members in giving and church work.
The husband was even the Sunday School Superintendant.
They were in no way strifeful.

This couple went the following Sunday to another church of the same Pentecostal denomination. The former pastor found out and called the new
pastor. He told him in no way to accept this couple into his church and said
many disparaging things. Other area pastors got the same phone call.

Thus this couple stayed out of church services for a whole year.

Finally one pastor who was of the same pentecostal denomination called them and invited them to service. He took them in and allowed them to work for Jesus in small areas later trusting them in other areas.

The former pastor found out about it. He stood behind the pulpit and told the whole church family that if they even visited this church that fellowshipped this family that they were never to return to his assembly. They were to shun them and all the church members. Even members of their family....children etc who attended the church were warned.

It gets better. An unsuspecting couple starts going to the new church they attend and become friends. They meet together to discuss Bible every Sunday afternoon indepth.

The pastor old pastor finds out and then announces the name of the new couple they are friends with and says that if anyone fellowships them as well they are not to come back to his church.


Have I been in the dark for a long time or does this go on in many churches
and pentecostal denominations?


What a hinderance to the Gospel this is. When will people grow up and do something for Jesus. It seems so much like Junior High. No wonder people are lost and going to hell. The focus is all about total compliance. So what if people have Bible questions.We ought to all be digging deep into the word.

I want this to be a lesson to me the next time I pastor that people who really study are to be encouraged and they don't have to line up with my every train of thought. Jesus is the judge. If its not a salvational issue and
even if they are researching salvational issues deeper then its a good thing.
Its better than sitting brain dead on a pew putting in their tithes and offerings each week like pentecostal clones. I can't see that in the New Testament Church. I remember an elder quoting it was better to cool down
a fanatic than to warm the dead!:thumbsup

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

It's not biblical, and yes it happens in other denominations. I'm friends with a lot of homeschoolers in other denominations, and they have just as many horror stories.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I pray for that pastor's soul...

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

This is sad stuff. I am used to larger churches where people actually clap when you do something for Jesus. Not a place where they knife you in the back and call your name out and associate it with mud. People can be so mean and slanderous one minute and be shouting in their services and running the aisles. That doesn't mean they will get into heaven though. I wonder how much grace is gonna really cover this kind of stuff?

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Wow, sister. What a shame. I felt the brunt of similar things due to my prophetic stance, while I do not even believe my view is a matter of salvation.

God sees it all.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Most pastors like this want their flock to be brain dead clones who sit on pews dropping their tithes every week. Too much of Pentecost is a money making scheme wherein mind control tactics abound.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

The end game to this type of controlling scenario for the pastor almost always results in him having multiple affairs with as many wives as he can. Starting in secret and ultimately ending up as common knowledge (with the congregation actually believing that God Himself is commanding it to happen) depending on his level of control.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Yes being post trib myself I understand this. When you disagree on one or more important doctrine it makes it very hard to commit to a Church. They dont trust you and you are very hesitant to labor for a Church that you feel is teaching error.

I used to try to "fit in" but gave it up long ago.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I suppose I don't see this as an "important doctrine." Why does it matter whether you believe Jesus will come back before, during or after the tribulation? How is that possibly important, as a matter of fellowshipping and laboring together? :blink

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I agree.... unless it's a church that really *majors* on that doctrine.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

In what you have posted, there is only one conclusion possible: This pastor is an ignorant and immature individual, and further, is not called to pastor.

I don't see anyway to justify his attitude and actions!!

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Its important because Paul said this:

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:1-4

If what I believe is right I cant let someone deceive me about what Paul is saying. He says it about this particular topic. And even if I personally would decide to sit under a pre trib Pastor I would have to deal with my conscience concerning taking others to a Church that does exactly what Paul warned us about......teaching Christ could come before the man of sin.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

yes, they still happen, and not only in Pentecostal churches, though those instances are what we are most familiar with. Thankfully there are many healthy churches out there that don't do things like that.

Not only are things like what you named unbiblical, they are, IMO, antibiblical.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I have come to the conclusion that a pastor who will repeatedly expel and shun those who have a different opinion but aren't stirring strife, or those who've been wrongfully slandered, or whatever, doesn't really believe what he preaches. Because, if he believes what he preaches, and he tells people not to come to his church and tries to prevent them from going to another that preaches the same basic doctrine, he is quite literally saying, "Go to Hell!"

JMO

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Majors on it? The second coming of Jesus is as important as it gets. Thats why on THIS SUBJECT Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Matter of fact Jesus said the very same thing in his introduction to the end time teaching of Matt. 24.

"Let no man deceive you".

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

In context:
Mt 24:4-5 Jesus told them, "Don't let anyone fool you. For many will come claiming to be the Messiah, and will lead many astray."

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Now... back to the original topic of the thread...

BUMP!! :largehalo

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Believing that He's coming back is important. Knowing when it will happen in reference to the tribulation? Not so much. I agree with mm's verse--it shows the context a little better.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I offered Matt. 24 as a prooftext. I meant the whole chapter. So lets look at the full context.

1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note the large letters helping to put in context of what one should expect in the end times.

But of course if one is not post trib they will see this as nothing so exit stage left.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I used to know an awful lot more about the end times and Revelation than I do now! I am personally, pre-trib but I personally don't care where anyone is on that subject. NO ONE has a corner on the "End Times" market.......not even Irvin Baxter. I find it hard to believe, #1 that a pastor would make it a matter of fellowship on that issue and #2 that a person would choose a church based on that issue. I think that is straining at a gnat. Most of us know the end time events. It is the timing of those events that unfortunately divides too many. If pre, mid, post trib is litmus test for fellowship, then I'm not sure that those are the kinds of people I want to hang out with. It will only be a matter of time before another and another issue comes up that is a litmus for fellowship. :D

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

You're presenting proof that your view is the correct one, Michael--not proof that a disagreement with your understanding of the passage means fellowship between Christians should be at risk.

I'm not arguing this view one way or the other--because I simply got sick to death of hearing ministers argue over it when I was a kid. My point is that disagreeing over when Jesus will come back shouldn't be a point of contention so severe that Christians treat one another badly. (Like in the scenario presented on this thread.)

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I know a Pastor like that, but he left the UPC and went independent. While he was UPC he trash talked my church and my Pastor...the crime? My pastor voted for video and allowed wedding rings. Other than that they were both pretty conservative alike

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I know several pastors like that-most I know have left the UPC and gone other directions, too. Crimes from video to wedding bands to sleeve length to not believing in permanent expulsion as "discipline"... to simply being friends with the wrong person or being affiliated with the wrong group. It's very sad. Last time I checked, the NT was pretty strongly against divisions and strife... I think those things are actually warned against in the NT more often than wedding bands, sleeve length, video, or affiliation. Maybe I misread something though...

:haloplug

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

First off MOW let me say you are a likable man and you have given some good advice from time to time here. Now you are proving what I said in the beginning. A post trib who loves the truth is not really welcome in a pre trib Church.

And you are right as important as post trib is it is not the only foundational truth. I believe truth is to be loved. The Apostle John said he had no greater joy than to hear the elect walk in truth. All the truth is very important.

Sure you and others say no one has "a corner" on the end times. But some one does have the basic knowledge of the end time. One of the views is right the others are wrong.

You have aptly said I am the kind of person you would not want to hang out with. I honor that by not wasting my time or others by trying to compromise enough to be acceptable to you all.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

There are a lot of ways that the "Pre-Trib" rapture is articulated that still has "the man of sin" appearing before the "tribulation."

The "tribulation" is usually understood as being the "wrath of God." Whatever misery the "man of sin" is responsible for is seen as something different than "God's wrath."

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I said that IF, and I included ALL Trib views, was a litmus test for fellowship, that it would only be a matter of time before other issues would be added to that list. ANYONE with ANY view of the trib is welcome at NLC and that would include you, no exceptions. My point was that particular attitude would cause problems. Not that I would have problems but that the person holding that exclusive view would have a problem.

My point was that I don't think I'd want to hang out with someone who was going to be that picky on fellowship. It would only be a matter of time before they found something that would justify breaking fellowship. I've seen it over and over and over.

You have every right to hold the viewpoint you do, and I respect that, but are you saying that if you attended a church that was in line with everything else you believe but was pre-trib, you couldn't fellowship them?
Do you think they are lost?
Do you think they are willful deceivers?
Do you think they are displeasing to God?

Post trib is ONLY ONE of the many and varied views of eschatology and there are not even a majority of evangelicals who hold that view. I know the roots of Dispensationalism and I'm not sure it's all that it's cracked up to be, but I certainly wouldn't withhold fellowship from a fellow believer simply due to a differing eschatological viewpoint. :D

Hey, I even respect full pre-terists! (EB) I personally think it is a bunch of bunk but I won't tear them down either for it.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Neither do the majority believe in Oneness. Who else believes in it means little to me. In the first place tho in the early Church it was THE only view. Thats why Paul was so strong about it. We see it down through time much differently and cant even relate to what is was like then when men had confidence they were walking in truth.

To US its normal for all Church members to believe whatever they choose. It was not so in the beginning. Any variance was considered heresy.



Well first when you say if a Church was in line with all I believe except on the rapture that would certainly be a wonderful thing to have THAT much agreement. A lot depends on what fellowship means to you. I see it kind of on several levels. I might be able lets say to fellowship with them but I could not LABOR with them.

Are pre tribbers lost? I dont assume they are hey I used to be one too. But yes they are deceived on that point. Its so important because Paul says on that particular issue "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Are pre trib teachers willful deceivers? Well I dont know their hearts my sense is that some are not some are. As I said I taught that at one time. I believe the Spirit will lead into all truth.

I think all false doctrine is displeasing to God while at the same time I can say that he blesses those who are in it assuming there are his. He works in them (or us as the case may be) to get us where he wants us whether in faith or practice.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

You seriously couldn't labor with a Pre-tribber?


So, a blood bought, sold out saint who holds a differing trib view is one with whom you cannot labor? Are you really serious or are you pulling my leg? :D

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Of course Im serious. What kind of confusion would that be? I would be teaching that Jesus will not come till after the man of sin and the mark of the beast. They would be teaching the opposite. The poor new converts! The poor saints sitting in the pew with the trumpet giving an uncertain and contradictory sound.

Lets look at it from this angle. Could you labor with a Trinitarian? If not why?

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Absolutely, YES! I do and I have! And I don't have to compromise who I am or what I believe. I am simply tolerant and respectful of where they are right now. Might just be God's will that I'm in their life......and vice versa.

Also, I teach very little about the end times. In fact, I'm finishing up a 3 week series on the end times tomorrow, which is the first time I've done it since '04. I major on godly living NOW, not on what may or may not happen according to someone's end time "clock." IMO, it's majoring on the minors. The most important thing is living for Him and being ready for His coming; not being able to score an "A" in eschatology.

Actually, I don't have any confusion about the end times in the church I pastor. I try to put things into perspective and major on the Christ-like life. With Jesus in the center, the rest of the issues aren't "fought" about. Discussed? Yes. Fought over? No. :D

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Whats wrong with preaching godly living now and doing so with a view toward his second coming? I preach both. Jesus certainly did not think his words were "majoring on minors". All his words are more important than all of anyone elses.

I dont enjoy "fighting over" issues myself. Thats why I cannot in good conscience commit to a group that I believe is teaching error. I would always be a thorn in their side. Either that or I would have to just be silent and pretend the words of Jesus are "minors".

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

And of course we are hearing only one side of the story here.....the pastor might be an ogre like he is being portrayed here or the reality might be that there is a whole lot more to the story than someone asking some simple questions.

I have seen folks who were "innocently" asking questions and having friendly Bible studies in their home...go on to split the church and wreak havoc amongst the saints....

As I said the pastor might be bad...this happens, but on the other hand he might be totally justified in doing what he did.
I have noticed that folks telling their story are alway pure as the driven snow while the others are spawn of satan.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Please clarify. Was the pastor justified in telling the couple he couldn't pastor them and they'd have to go somewhere else? Or was it that he was justified for calling the other pastor and saying disparaging things about the couple? Or maybe it was for telling others that they couldn't return to church if they visited the other church or fellowshipped these people or for being angry with a couple that didn't know the history of the situation?

Whether the couple was right or wrong in their intentions, these actions were NOT justified. Even if the couple's intent was to split the church... do we truly believe that God can heal cancer but lack faith that God will intervene in a divisive situation in HIS church? Do we truly believe He can heal our bodies, but not His own? Or is it better to divide two entire churches than to allow the slightest possibility that someone might convince someone to disagree with us?

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

That IS what I do. I preach the 2nd coming and I preach that it is close at hand. How close? Seems very close to me. But folks have been saying that for a LONG time. That doesn't bother me. If you were to ask the folks @NLC whether we were pre-post, or "a" mill, or pre-mid or post trib, they would scratch their head and say, "What?" If you ask them if NLC preaches the second coming, they would resound with a "YES!" Who really cares which of those views it is? I certainly don't! Those views are NOT important. Jesus told us the general "sign" of the end times. That is good enough for me.

Sorry I'm not good enough for you. You have made my point well. :D

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Not important? To you perhaps but to the Holy Spirit he was not wasting words when he inspired:

2 Thess. 2:1-5

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Yet you can say "Who really cares? Wow!

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

If the pastor did all the things he was accused of there would be reason to be upset with what he did...however we are still only hearing one side of the story....it may not even be remotely like they are telling it.

I have had folks tell the biggest lies about me and others simply because it justified their wicked behavior.

Also although very seldom (once or twice) in my ministry there have been folks I simply had to send down the road and if they had attended any other church (Apostolic) I would have been duty bound to inform the pastor that they were wolves in sheeps clothing...AND tell the saints of my church they need to stay away from them.

There are certain folks that are simply evil...and can fool most every one into thinking they are just fine folks.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Is it not possible that the kind of people you are talking about could be changed by the grace and mercy of God and actually become good, upstanding saints? Or that you might have been mistaken?

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

Of course it is possible...i have seen it happen...there are key folks in my church that at one time helped split this church....but they came beck and became some of the best folks you will ever find...dont know what I would do without them.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that THEN they were busy destroying...and I mean destroying the church...it is just the grace of God the church here stands today.
And at that time something drastic needed to be done.

If someone becomes an enemy of Gods church, they cannot be allowed to wreak havoc...and it is the pastors responsibility to take action...and then God will do what He can to restore them.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I 'd personally prefer to let God take action when He thinks it's necessary, since it is His church.

Re: What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bib
 

I preach this. In fact, I just preached it for 3 weeks and finished up a series on the end times. I believe pre-trib is correct. However, I also teach that we could be wrong on the timing and that the most important thing is to be ready. Just because I don't preach it like you do, you call that deception. Once again, you make my point. Straining at a gnat! IMO :D