When Was The Canon Established?
 

Was the canon established before 70 AD by the apostles, since the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in the scriptures, or was the canon established by the later roman councils such as Nicea in 325 AD? Can you provide any evidence or support for your position?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

There are no historical records that the apostles of the First Century ever had a NT canon. They were certainly aware of the writings that were circulating (2 Peter 3:15-16). One curious note is that the NT writers themselves used "non-canonical" books from the OT time period and quoted them in the exact manner that they quoted other Scripture.

But, given the disputes that arose as early as the end of the First Century, it is clear that the Apostles themselves had not prepared anything like a list of writings that were to be considered "Scripture." None of the combatants in this issue even claims that such a list existed.

The earliest "list" of a canon of the NT was made by a "heretic" - Marcion of Sinope (A.D. 85-160). His attempt at "rewriting" NT theology was then answered by a flurry of others who proposed the more orthodox canons.

It seems that this "heretic" was the impetus behind the whole notion of a NT canon and was the catalyst of the various canons. What's interesting is that no "Ecumenical" Church council had "fixed" a NT canon until the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...estament_canon

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

What was he referring to, here?

2 Tim. 3:16

King James Bible
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Maybe this might help. http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net...onization.html

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

2 Timothy 3:15 - the "Scriptures" that Timothy had known "from a child." This prepositional phrase would appear to have Paul not taking his own writings into account in the statement that follows in verse 16.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

The Scriptures that Timothy would have studied... was it the Old Testament as we know it? The Torah? Something different altogether?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

So it wasn't until the New Testament canon was established that Paul's writings were considered 'scripture'?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

The Torah includes just the first 5 books of the OT. This would have been the "canon" of the Sadducees. What the early Christians studied included all of the books of our OT plus some other writings such as the apocryphal Book of Enoch.

No. What I was saying was that Paul himself wasn't appealing to his own writings nor even the writings of any of the other NT writers in 1 Timothy 3:16. He was only referring to the "Scriptures" Timothy had known from a child.

This doesn't discount the inspiration of the NT itself. It's just what Paul was talking to Timothy about - the Scriptures Timothy had known from his childhood.

Peter would later refer to Paul's writings as "Scripture."

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

I guess my real question is who established the canon and when? Was it 1st century christians or the roman church?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Interesting article here:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/xn-canon.html

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

That depends on how you look at it and what you mean by "The Roman Church."

The Roman Catholic Church as it exists today didn't really come into being until about the Eleventh Century. Many people within the Roman establishment certainly argued that their authority extended over all of the other bishops, but that wouldn't really come into actual practice until after the "Great Schism" between East and West. It was also at about this time that a lot of practices that we recognize as "RCC" came into being: celibacy and non-married clergy, prohibition on beards being worn by the clergy, etc.

What the early Christians believed was that they were "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20). So, anything said and taught by Jesus Christ and His apostles was considered "Scripture."

The winnowing and selection of just what documents represented these teachings took some time. Most of our NT today was "universally accepted" pretty much from the start. There were other books that were accepted in some regions but questioned in others. Given the lack of any means of modern communication between the various regions, it simply took some time for the "universally accepted" stamp to be applied to all of the books that we recognize today.

A lot of people want to believe that there was some apostle (usually John) who sorted through everything and set the canon. The fact is, no one even made such a claim until centuries and centuries later. Marcion's heresy seems to have really caught the church off guard. If there was some sort of authentic canon at that time, the follow up to Marcion would not have been as jumbled as it was.

The straight answer to your question is: The Council of Trent - 1545.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

My preceding post merely recognizes the "official" stamp made by the closest thing to an Ecumenical council. Obviously, the books of the New Testament were already accepted and recognized long before 1545.

Most of the Church Fathers looked at the whole process as involving the Holy Spirit speaking to the church.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

A lot of people are frustrated by what appears to be a rather "informal" process of canonization. On the other hand, had there been some sort of authoritarian council demanding and commanding obedience, then most of these same folks would cry out say that such a thing was the work of the devil.

Personally, I like the way it happened. It was a completely free and open process and it involved a large measure of chaos and circumstances that were simply out of the control of any one party or interest. Maybe it really was the Holy Spirit speaking to the church?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Great article and great thread. Pel, appreciate your insight and obvious research.

One thing about the above article; it didn't point out that Authorship of the Gospels is not clear, and, that many believe they were written by men who were not the Apostles.

History suggests the actual writing of the 4 Gospels didn't take place until 30-160 AD, depending on who you want to believe.

Many may feel this is not important, but I disagree. Not being able to trace the Authenticity of a past writing by including a genuine Author leaves room for corrupted variance and a never ending argument. It is these small things that get past us in the name of protecting what our mothers and fathers taught us. “God forbid we would question the Bible”, can haunt the mind with FEAR, leading to the acceptance of things only because we were told, “Thou Shalt Not”.

The article also pointed out the period where science and "Proof" began to conflict with the Canon, such as the period of Galileo when his findings conflicted with the Church and "Scripture". There are many more things about the Gospels that veer us from modern findings, which I feel shouldn't be the case, bringing greater light upon those who suggest that these Books are accurate and inspired by God.

For instance; Demons possessing a person. The Gospels point out that people who were "Crazy" seemed to be demon possessed and needed to be exorcized. Today we know that the mentally deranged or handicapped are not demon possessed via modern medicine.

I believe situations such as these should be included in the debate of whether or not Books are considered part of the "Canon". It seems, whenever science and the facts about our Earth and Human Life are ignored in the name of Faith or a Tradition, we derail the most important thing needed in developing a solid Faith in God; Trust.

If I'm told to just believe something "Just because", the Generation behind me will stand up and call me fool if a modern day Galileo defies my idea with the facts after I’m gone.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

"the Canon" is a subjective term here. What do you mean? Do you mean when did man collect them into one book or do you mean when was the word finished?

God inspired the men, apostles, prophets,scribes to speak and to record. Nobody knows when the last letter was written but probably around 80 AD, since the Apostles were getting pretty old and dying off.

The bible is not a History so there is no reason for it to mention Jerusalem. The books of the bible were not written all in the same time frame or in the same location. So someone writting it in 70 AD over in some far corner of the world, might have also written what they wrote before hearing of Jerusalems fall.

A Canon is merely a collection of books that were already written and in use. So church leaders collected those books already written and in use. They examined them. They saw if there were any internal and external contradictions that would lead them to believe the letters were either spurious or contained interpolations. If they did they rejected them as Canon.

Canon's or Lists of books had been around since before 325 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica...ristian_canons

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Let it be noted that this verse was not scripture when it was written. It was merely part of a letter. It was referring to other scripture.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

The words of warning about adding or taking away of the words of this book, is referring to the book of Revelation. Nowhere does it state in the bible about not adding to the bible. Maybe 500 years from now, Andrew Urshan's book would be considered for cannon! Who knows? :D

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

uh... no. :toofunny

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

I believe this video will be helpful -- a fellow AFF member passed this on to me:

http://imgood.me/2010/04/roy-fishers-story-q-a/

As Pel says, there was no real formal process (until the middle of the 3rd Century and into the 4th Century). By that time tt was very after-the-fact though. The writings the community shared were not looked at as a relic. How they viewed scripture, I believe, was a lot different than our Western grid that we peer through.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Not all they were inspired to write became part of what is now a formal canon though.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Is it closed?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Am I dead?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Has the Pope gone charismatic?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Oh, look, there was a whole thread devoted to this question: http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=24290.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

stop hijacking, Timmy!

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

I just wanted to know who collected the books we consider inspired? was it done by apostolic jesus-name christians or roman catholic pagans?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

But the answer to "when" must consider whether it is finished or not. :D

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

no,
Peter referred to some of Paul's writings as "scripture" in 2 Peter 3:15-16
Also Paul considered some of his writings to be God's Word in 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 where he refuted some of the Corinthians for quoting Jewish oral tradition to try to enforce women keeping silence in the congregation.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

"Roman Catholic 'pagans.'"

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Neither. It was done over the course of the first 2 centuries. The books were already in use by churches. Some churches did not have all books. That is to be understood since they did not have printing machines.

There were, as my link showed, several collections. At some point christians of that error decided it would be best to collect all the books that the churches were using and decide if any were spurious and exclude them.

They had methods of authenticity that includes the historical method, internal and external evidences and internal and external contradictions.

I think you make a error by choosing either or pagans did it.

As Pel stated and I have many times added Roman Catholicism as we know it today evolved over many years. It was NOT the Roman Catholic church then as you have come to think of it. Further though these men were Trinitarians, the Modalists and Arians of the day were using the same books they were to prove their theologies

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

Yeah, Timmy!! This might be a SIN. :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

BTW, DM, it's called Threadjacking. :winkgrin :hijacked

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

correct... Paul does not say his writings are that of "all scripture". It most likely is a reference to scriptures we consider the OT and possibly others as well.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

your assuming alot on 2 Peter as even divine inspired.

Allegedly Peter says...

2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

"writings" or "scipture" choose what you will.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

On the subject of the history of the NT canon, you make a great point about 2 Peter. This was one of the books that was held suspect in many parts of early Christendom.

My statements concerning "what is Scripture" generally follow the traditional or most ecumenically accepted canon. Of course within that context, there is a lot of history and debate; one can't qualify every statement. Everything I say here is just "IMHO" and spoken in generalities unless otherwise qualified.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

So, we might be missing out on some inspired, written words of God?

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

No. It's just that in the specific passage cited (2 Timothy 3:16) the words "all Scriptures" are to be understood in the context of 2 Timothy 3:15-16.

Paul was writing at a specific point in time. When he stated that Timothy had known the Scriptures "from a child" (or from that age when he was a child) there were clearly only the OT scriptures in existence.

Timothy obviously hadn't know the book of 2 Timothy from the time he was a child. Paul was just writing the epistle in Timothy's young adulthood.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

The Legalistic One thinks Timothy (and Paul) may have known of other profitable and inspired scriptures, besides what we call the OT.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

What does "inspired" mean? :)

I find the ultra-literalists have too much liberty with this word.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

And, as you know, Jude quoted Enoch and considered him a prophet.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

A LOT of history and debate. And how people treat the canon intrigues me. Some Christians think it a crime of God to read apocryphal books. Others see in the letters passed around to the churches, and those books that make up our Old Testament as a religious relic full of mystic codes, that one need only bible school creativity to sermonize from. I prefer, in the tradition of Judaism, to see it as a Story.

Re: When Was The Canon Established?
 

And what does "profitable" mean? :D