Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Are people going to hell if they do not get baptized in the Name of Jesus?

Does it matter how your baptized?

Is baptism essential to salvation?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

:popcorn2

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I preach baptism in Jesus' name and propose it is part of salvation. I believe it is what Romans 6 was speaking about.

But no one in the bible ever associated HELL with or without it, whether or not it saves from hell. I like how Priscilla and Aquila handled it.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

1) No-- this reason ALONE will not send a soul to hell.

2) Yes. I beleive immersion to be what the Bible demonstrates in most if not all instances of water baptism. Speaking the Name of Jesus during the baptism is VITAL for me-- as for anyone that I may have the privilege of baptizing one day.

3) If a person repents and while crossing the street to get to the baptismal they are run over by a speeding taxicab, I don't believe they would go to hell.

Every Christian should obey the Bible-- we are commanded to do so! To not get baptized is to sin.

If a person chooses not to be baptized after being taught the truth of the Biblical command, I don't count them as saved.


At the same time, a person is not saved because they were baptized the "right way". Neither are they saved because they were baptized at all.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

You contradict yourself

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Unless a man obeys acts 2:38 completely. He can not be saved.

It matters how your baptized, and it's essential to be Baptized in Jesus Name!

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Its easier to ask a question than give a answer, so I will ask you a question.

One of my IBC room mates was converted during the first Iraq war by one of our chaplains. They were in the middle of the deep desert with very strict water rationing, in fact fellow marines donated their water rations to help this event out. He was baptized with a helmet filled with water in the name of Jesus by a UPCI chaplain.

If he had caught a bullet the next day would have my friend been given full baptisimal regeneration or was he just getting wet in the middle of the desert?

Answer that and I will fully indulge you in this conversation till we get to page 100+.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I agree. A yes or no answer is always predicated with a bunch of "What If's".

This is the exact threshold that causes many to question Religion, and, keeps those who are dogmatic about Faith and a particular belief at arms distance from those who know what they're talking about.

It's easy to corner the ignorant with a definitive answer, but the educated bring contrast into the picture, causing the Religious World to squirm by revealing greater facts through measurable arguments regarding the Bible, Culture, History, and Science.

Getting a solid answer concerning who is saved or lost is, well, basically not known. We simply do our best with what we know, but to be quite frank, none of us do know because none of us have been there. I have noticed, Apostolics years ago were much more precise in telling people, “UNLESS you do this or that, you won’t make it”. Today, we are seeing a dramatic shift away from such dogma, even by those who consider themselves Conservative.

Baptism is required by many, and not required by many others, and they both will argue the point as long as we are on this Planet building Religion. In the end, I think we are all in for a big surprise.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

So, is everyone who has not obeyed Acts 2:38 going to Hell?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I obeyed Acts 2:38 completely as I was taught as a UPCI youth. Now I teach that you are saved by obedient faith, a obedient christian will naturally get baptized because Jesus commanded it, and every Christian should be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit to be empowered witness and do miracles (have you recieved since you BELIEVED? - Paul) and they will strive to live a sanctified life because the bible says its a persons lifestyle and their charity are the true long term evidences of being saved.

But I now take the PCI position that salvation comes at repentence/faith/obedience to the Word (step 1).

Am I going to hell even though I have been repented, baptized, have recieved the Holy Spirit, and now teach this exactly like our first General Superintendent of the UPCI Howard Goss did?

if you feel brave enuff, send me to hell, I get it every so often. Also don't forget the first General Superintendent of the UPCI... is he going to hell too for teaching false doctrine? If you can answer both without any weasel words like "God is your judge" or "I leave it up to the Lord", I will respect you more.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Yeah.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

To be born of the water one must be baptized in water for the remission of sins. Without baptism there is no remission! One must also be born of the spirit and that comes with the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the sign and evidence of speaking in tongues as the spirit gives the utterance!

Mark 16: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 19:2-6
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul talking to Johns disciple established that it is not enough to just believe by asking them "have you recieve the holy ghost since you believed" He then questioned thier mode of baptism and and had them baptized in Jesus name, when they were they begin to speak in other tongues as the spirit gave the utterance. They became born of the water and the spirit!

The reason for Jesus name baptism as stated in Acts 2:38 and not Matthew 28:19 is a two fold reason.. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." We are saved by the name! We are not saved by titles of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 even commands that we baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost! It teaches us that there is a singular name for the F,S, and HG. That name is found in Acts 2:38 when they are commanded to be baptized in JESUS name for the remissions of Sin... Jesus the Name of God, The name given to men by which we must be saved!

Even the disciples understood this because not one disciple or apostle ever baptized in the title of F,S, HG. If you read they all baptized in Jesus name.

So is baptism essential to salvation and does it matter how we are baptized. YES, the bible makes it quite clear! We are to be immersed in water in Jesus name for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38 is the fullfillment of John 3:5 when Jesus commands that we be born of the water and the spirit because when you follow Acts 2:38 you get born of the water and the spirit infills you so you become born of the spirit!

Hopes this helps
God Bless

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Well to be honest, i'm unsure. I would hope yes!
But the only reason I am bothered is by the fact that "Baptisim" means "To make fully Wet" that is full immersion.

The Biblical mode was immersion, which is one of the reason's its typed with "burying".
You don't bury the dead by pouring a bucket of dirt on their head.

But given the circumstances, they tried their best to obey. If he made it to a place of water, I would reccomend getting baptized by immersion.

On one hand, if this man is sincere & spirit filled, I would think the Lord would let him survive until able to be baptized regular. If the man does die the next day, I would assume the helmet worked.

This is the best answer I can give you.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

and AMEN

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Just like you said, you could play the "What if" game in anything we discuss.

The word doesn't play or talk in "What If's".
If we believe the truth of what it says about Water baptism for one, its the same for all! He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I'm not responsible for "What If's"
i'm only responsible to obey what I know the word commands, and to teach that same word to everyone without modifying it.

Straight & narrow is the gate

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Maybe this point has been brought up before but I haven't seen it if it has.

What does "baptism in Jesus name" mean anyway? Is that teaching that one's salvation hinges on the utterance and performance of another man? WHOSE confession is essential here? The person being baptized or the one doing the baptizing?

Teaching that a preacher, or a priest, must perform some sort of ritual on your behalf or you're not a child of God and not forgiven, is placing that preacher, or priest, and their performance directly between the individual and God. It's teaching that another man's performance must be added to Jesus' finished work in order to 'apply' Jesus to an individual.

This simply isn't true. I challenge anyone to find a single scripture teaching that one's salvation hinges on the baptismal ritual performance of another man. It's not there.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I have been instructed that orthodoxy is the proper doctrinal statements from the bible, and orthoproxy is the doctrine of practices in the Bible. Where is "Speaking the Name of Jesus during the baptism is VITAL" ever documented in orthoproxy? The first century church? The Bible? It is not.

Not picking on you, just stating that nobody knows what was spoken during baptism, it is just something some people made up as best I can tell. The Bible doesn't even record John saying anything over the baptism of Jesus. Words are not important, the faith of the person being baptized seems to be important.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

O gee!!! Another straight& narrow reference!!!

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Proof text on what being baptized in Jesus Name means? Like, if you are being baptized because you are placing your faith in Jesus, you are getting baptized in Jesus name, not John's baptism?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Both of you gentlemen make the same mistake in language here. Instead of using the proper contraction " you're " you have mistakenly used the possessive pronoun " your ."

In the world of fast and sloppy posting this is hardly a matter for correction or complaint. We all just hammer out something on the keyboard and trust that our Internet friends will read past the minor grammatical and spelling errors. It's no big deal.

But I see your argument concerning just how and when "the name of the Lord" is pronounced or used in a baptismal ceremony to be akin to my pointing out your grammar problems.

I have asked many denominational pastors, Bible college instructions, theology professors and others about this issue over the years. I have yet to meet any Christian teacher or leader who ever suggested that baptism NOT be done "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."

There are many different rites associated with baptism in many churches. Some of them involve such a long invocation that the officiant must read it out of a book. I have yet to ever see anyone who performed a baptism or who trained clergy to perform baptisms who ever omitted the name of Jesus Christ from the prayers, statements, liturgy, homilies or even their ad hoc extemporaneous exclamations.

Your complaint here appears to be as silly and pedantic as my pointing out your bad grammar.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

If it didn't matter, Paul wouldn't have rebaptized the disciples of John in Jesus Name.

Because both baptism's were done by immersion in water.

Yes the baptizee must believe on Jesus, OBVIOUSLY. But the Baptizer must also Say in Jesus Name! It matters the name said over you.

Why else did Jesus command THEM to baptize in the name.... It mattered how they baptized the person....

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Where does the bible say the baptizer must say in Jesus Name? Where the bible is silent let us be silent also.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Even catholics pray in Jesus name, yet their doctrine is in error as is Baptism.

if they do not say in the name of Jesus for Baptism, its invalid....
Bottom line.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I like catholics. They at least have good explanations for the things they do.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

He instructed the dicsples on it in Matthew 28:19.

Tell me the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost?
JESUS! He commanded them to baptize in that name....

Now even your common sense should come into play here :)

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

:spit

rofl! Right

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

When you were baptized did the one performing the baptism say, "in the name of Jesus for Baptism?"

I doubt that he did.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

So when you die, if you happen to sin right before your death, will you go to hell?


What if you sin but you don't think it is a sin, right before you die, will you go to hell?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Hopefully I don't appear contradictory here. No what if's, just answers. Now say I believe a false doctrine and say that I'm not really saved and say whatever else you want to say.

Say whatever you want, but what you say does not matter.



1) No.

2) Yes.

3) No.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I used to sit and watch as Catholic apologists had Oneness Pentecostals for lunch. It was amazing. The OP's were completely confounded right out of the gate.

My favorite - and this is a good one for UltraCon and Mr. Cox - How can you guys claim to be "apostolics" if you don't even use the Bible the apostles used?

Roman Catholics at least use the same OT as the apostles.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

You're saying there's no forgiveness of sins without another man performing 'correctly', other than Jesus, on your behalf?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

The Lord knows the intent of the heart. :thumbsup

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I had one UPC pastor ask me to put him in contact with Karl Keating of Catholic Answers. Mr. Keating was very kind in his response, but the pastor was obviously flummoxed by the responses and back down from doing the proposed debate. A wise move given the very poor level of theological education that UPC and other Oneness pastors and ministers receive.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

The Bible is silent as to whether Priscilla and Aquila ministered water and Spirit baptism to Apollos in contrast to its clarity in the case of Paul's ministry to those Ephesian Baptists.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

The examples are endless that portray difficult and very dramatic outcomes of human beings on Earth. I will give you just one, and wonder if you will still type "Yeah" after considering the following:

Human trafficking is the second largest organized crime in this Country, behind illegal drugs. Children are kidnapped, drugged, and sold on the Black Market as "Sex Slaves". These children become victims, contracting deadly STD's such as AIDS during adolescence, leading to premature death.

They can die before they even reach the age of 20 from murder, drug overdose, and disease, never hearing the Gospel message you and I have heard.

Are these children going to Hell?

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

NO, NO, and NO!!!!!

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

I think we are comparing apples in oranges here.

These people had apparently not even heard the Gospel.

Upon hearing, they were convinced of their need to be baptized according to the Gospel they had received.

They weren't rebaptized because they had "flawed faith" in Jesus Christ.

They were rebaptized because they're faith was in God, sealed by an Old Testament ritual, contrary to the true Gospel by which we are now saved.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Thats killer.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Welcome to the squishy middle.

Re: Let's talk about Baptism.
 

Nor by putting them an inch or two underground, normally. Shouldn't a baptism be submerged to a depth of 6 feet? Wait. You don't bury the dead in water, at all! Better use dirt! :lol