Intelligence Is Still Important
 

...In response to recent postings from our dogmatic hardliner friends. Found an amusing piece written on another forum and a certain portion stood out. I would regard it as good entertainment, but being that some parts actually ring of truth, I thought I'd share that feeling of uneasiness which accompanies the realization that the strong really do rule the weak in this world (See bold portion).


IQ over 189
In all of human history only about two dozen people have been this smart. William James Sidis is one example. He lectured Harvard mathematicians on four-dimensional mathematics at age 11 and was a professor of mathematics at Rice University at age 14. He easily mastered many more languages than the then 'world record' of around 40. He would do the entire New York Times crossword in his head. Because of his eccentricities, academics and the press mercilessly hounded him. At the age of 22 he published a book discussing black holes a full 15 years before Nobel Laureate Chandrasekhar thought of them. He eventually refused to do anything academic or have anything to do with academic society. Who knows what these people think about or what they think of the rest of humanity.


IQ 172 - 188
Keynes-who used to intimidate Bertrand Russell-was probably in this category. John Stuart Mill and Bobby Fischer are also in this category. While still of primary school age only around one-in-a-thousand university professors can look them in the eye intellectually. They tend to read competently before they are three years old. They find even grand system building relatively easy. They are seldom understood or appreciated. Most feel profoundly isolated from society-even when they are appreciated. A large proportion of this group opt out of society and never make revolutionary contributions in the standard academic fields or professions. It seems to be very difficult to motivate them to play the academic/ scholarly/professional game because they regard even the most venerable of traditions and institutions as absurd or silly. Consider that their intellect is as far above that of the average person as the average person's intellect is above that of someone with mental retardation. Even the mind of the average professor appears to him like the mind of the average brick layer would appear to the professor.


IQ 156 - 171
The smarter Nobel Prize winners and most historical geniuses (people like Einstein, Hawking, Byron, Milton, Kant, Newton, Russell, Rand) are to be found in this category. Most exceed the average postgraduate in academic competence-even professors-while still in primary school, and probably knew more than their teachers from about the 6th grade onwards. Their powers of comprehension and reason are such that they can see that many alternative systems (theories) account for the essentials inherent in abstract hypotheses and may be able to compare these in turn and bring them within the ambit of a single grand formal system (theory). They can and do read philosophy for pleasure well before puberty. They can read at the university level before the average person can comprehend their first reader, i.e. 'I see a cat.' They can probably perceive several logically consistent ethical systems and may find themselves struggling with the problem of constructing a grand ethical system. A common experie nce with people in this category or higher is that they are not wanted-that the masses (including the professional classes) find them an affront of some sort. Fortunately they are plentiful in absolute numbers, so many of them do rise above the envy and hostility.


IQ 140 - 155
Most professional mathematicians, physicists, philosophers and high court judges or very senior counsel, can be found in this group. They are autodidacts par excellence. Highly regarded original academic work rarely occurs with lower IQs. Some in this group exceed the average university student in academic competence while still in primary school. They garner most academic honors like Phi Beta Kappa election, Rhodes scholarships, math Olympiads, etc. Many Nobel laureates and some historical geniuses, like Sartre, are also to be found here. Their reasoning powers are sufficient to enable them to build intellectual systems (theories) out of the essential features (not superficialities) of a situation. They can read anything and probably read philosophy for pleasure. Morality is now a matter of self-chosen ethical principles held to a standard of logical consistency. People in this category make up the society's intellectual leaders. Most original ideas start with these people, however their contribution tends to be in bits and pieces rather than a whole new system or new way of seeing things.


IQ 124 - 140
This group forms the bulk of the better doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants and other professionals, U.S. Presidents, CEOs of large companies and academics. This category of people and all those above them don't require assistance to learn. They can find the information and master the methods by themselves. They are capable of postgraduate work, including PhDs, but may struggle with a few subjects such as post-graduate mathematics, physics and philosophy. They usually appreciate that abstract hypotheses can be systematized and often attempt to do so (try to form theories), but for the most part they tend to miss the essentials and build systems out of superficialities. Reading philosophy and legal tracts with comprehension is possible. Morality is decidedly a matter of principles for this group but nevertheless they tend to accept established systems, rarely is the principled system a self-chosen one. These people tend to be the keepers, and transmitters, of knowledge and the higher points of any culture, but can't create it themselves. .


IQ 108 - 124
Their best work level is that of most teachers, low to middle level management and military officers, substandard to fair professionals and some elected national or provincial politicians. They can learn via the typical university format of lectures and textbooks. At times they might struggle at the university level, but graduation is not difficult. Abstract, what-if hypothetical thinking begins in this group but is still superficial. Some may be aware that their hypotheses could form part of a coherent whole but cannot draw out the whole themselves. Their best reading level is editorials, magazines like Time, The Economist and Scientific American, and classical novels. Principled morality also begins in this group, i.e. they can see there are nonarbitrary principles or laws that should govern ethical behavior and thought. They can also see that these laws are social constructs and have not come down from heaven or other ultimate authority. This group makes up the moral, intellectual and practical leadership assistants of society.


IQ 92 - 108
This is the average person, able to function at the level of skilled blue-collar, clerical, sales or police work. Learning varies from explicit coaching with hands on experience to study guides and textbook work with some practical experience. They should be able to deal with a high school curriculum and graduate but quite a few, even with hard work, won't do well enough to enter university. Their reasoning is proficient but pretty concrete at the level of non-essential surface details, and their reading level is, at best, news stories (not editorials), popular magazines and novels. Morality is conventional, a matter of serving the social order and tradition or doing your duty as defined by some authority like the church, a teacher, a parent or the state. This large group is the glue of society but given the wrong authority it (and the two groups below it) may do horrible things in the name of morality.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

continued...


IQ 76 - 92
Life is tough at this level. Anything other than unskilled labor is a trial, though simple semi-skilled work is possible. Learning is slow, simple and needs to be supervised closely to be effective. With application they may graduate from primary school but will nevertheless flounder quite badly in high school. Their reasoning is very superficial and concrete and they cannot see the essential form inherent in many examples of similar things. Most will never be functionally literate and the rest will not understand anything more complex than a popular magazine. It has been estimated that people in this category commit about 75% of all petty and violent crimes. Morality is very much of a primitive conventional sort, i.e. the good is whatever pleases himself or significant others and the bad is anything that displeases them. The vast majority of serious social problems are associated with people in this category because there are so many of them statistically.


IQ 60 - 76
In the old days, these people used to be called morons or feeble minded. At least some intermittent outside assistance becomes necessary. At this level and below people are inevitably functionally illiterate even if they have been taught to read for at least four years. Their communication and social skills are reasonable but by social/communication skills I am not referring to negotiation skills or wit, but basics like washing hands, dressing, brushing teeth, using toilet paper, looking at the person addressing them and finding the local doctor. They are socially and vocationally adequate (at menial labor) given special training and supervision. Many are able to lead a relatively independent life. Real (if superficial and concrete) logic appears in this category. Conventional morality also begins to appear in this category, i.e. the good is whatever pleases significant others and the bad anything that displeases them. At this point or below the law begins to regard them as being too stupid to know the difference between right and wrong and won't hold them responsible should they commit a serious crime.


IQ 44 - 60
Limited support becomes essential and with extended special education a maximum of Grade four could be attained by age 18. Their social and communication skills are fair but there is little self-awareness. They can function vocationally in a sheltered workshop. They need supervision in their living arrangements and cannot live independently. Their thinking does not involve much in the way of logic. Their ethical thinking is pre-moral, i.e. involves conditioning, but there is the beginning of a quid pro quo sort of morality.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Yikes!

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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's...

He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven...."

-Mark Twain-

Nothing new under the sun, eh Mr. Twain?

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I understand the implications and I find them distasteful. BTW, I work a very complex job. If you're trying to make fun of my recent post, then have at it. People made fun of Noah too. Oh yes, and would you describe the following men as ignorant?

Tamalge French
Larry Booker
Wayne McClain
David Bernard
Paul Mooney

These men hold the same views that I do. I guess that makes them stupid and immoral men. God have mercy on you.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

:blink

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

To all of those that will accuse me of getting angry without cause, please allow me to say this:

I don't mind when a person disagrees with my position. That's okay. The problem starts when someone begins to insult my intelligence. That is not scriptural at all. And yes, I realize that he didn’t directly call me a fool, but that was the implication.

Matthew 5:22 (New King James Version)
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[a] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I must have missed something.

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All I got out of this is that based on my IQ I am a major underachiever! :D

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:lol

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My IQ is 50 so I'm very proud of what I've been able to accomplish.

(I really have no idea what my iq is and don't trust those online tests to be accurate... remember when Peggy Hill got into Mensa (or something like that).

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I have no idea who Peggy Hill is.

But if BENNY Hill had gotten into Mensa, that would have been funny! He'd have been chasing all those girl-genius' around the conference tables! :ursofunny

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Just the episode recently.

"It has confirmed what I already know!"

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

My friend, you seem to be a devout person who believes what they believe sincerely, and I can respect that. In fact, I'm actually quite impressed with you. You have demonstrated a measure of courage by joining in the discussions posted on this forum. Cheers to you.

However, let me be very clear about something. I didn't call you, or anybody else a fool. In reading this thread, you may have inferred a personal attack on your intelligence, (and you'd be wrong btw) but it still doesn't equate to being labeled a fool. Foolishness denotes lack of wisdom, not intelligence. (I've been accused of lacking both :) )

Now, what was the point of this thread anyway??

In some obscure, twisted way, I think the general message is actually a rather noble one. I'm simply challenging folks to think, independently! With a certain few, maybe that isn't a good thing, but it's generally a good rule of practice for the rest of us. Of course, the reality is, we all have our limitations (see original posts 1-2), and ultimately, our worth as an individual is not really contingent on whether we're a brainiac or not. If you feel differently, then I'm obliged to respectfully disagree.

If you hang around, I think you''ll develop an appreciation for a lot of the good folks that make AFF great. Don't know what you've been told, but there exists a great wealth of knowledge, wisdom and faith among its members (typing from the bottom of the totem pole here). I don't know of any formal rules, but I suspect that original, well thought out contributions are respected by everybody that reads here. I certainly welcome them. Most of us can sniff up posts that smell of organizational propaganda before you click on the submit button. Unscrupulous and dubious doctrines do not go unchallenged in this realm, (if we have time to log on of course).

Bottom line: We want you to win. Period.

Here's something to consider. Ask your pastor (assuming you have one) for a list of criteria which helps him to determine "outward holiness standards" in his congregation, (again, assuming he holds them). Before he goes off prooftexting a bunch of gobbly gook, stop him in his tracks and respectfully ask "Wasn't the earthly Jesus Christ our standard? If he insists on adding to the "inadequacy" of the proposal by undermining the work of the Spirit in our complex lives, it may be the impetus you need to write a book on, "Christian Standards That Eclipse Jesus Christ," which is no doubt destined to become a best seller. Just cut me a little of the top for the idea.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

and yall wonder why all the conservative people leave....if you enjoy debate so much why not debate the thread instead of starting a mocking one?

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I wish you'd post more. I like reading your writings.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

"Conservative people?" I consider myself a robust conservative, and I'm still here. I have a hunch that many "conservative" people you're referring to never really left, but are lurking in the shadows. The staff here at AFF is simply irresistible!

At the moment, time constraints prevail with family, work, and grad school, but I'll be happy to engage more thoroughly when these college professors get done tweaking my cpu. :)

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Thanks! I like writing your readings! :thumbsup

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I have been gone for awhile but perhaps I really have missed more than I thought.

I read the initial posts and was very interested in what had been posted, then I saw the two posts quoted above and couldn't figure out if they had recently scored their age on an IQ test and were insulted by it or something else perhaps?. But then I thought, "no" because they would be too stupid to understand that they were being insulted. So I thought and thought and figured that it must be plain old narcissism that makes people think a post about IQ is all about them.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

This reminds me of a Toyota add which ran sometime during the middle of the 1990's in magazines and some newspapers. It just showed an open road with the caption "Unlike your last boyfriend, it will go to work every morning", or something to such effect. That was it! Nothing else!

The NAACP demanded an apology saying it was insulting to black people!

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

:ursofunny

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

You really show your intelligence calling people stupid on a Christian forum. But you made your likeness friends all giddy so I guess it worked. The only thing is I didn't see what was so humorous about your post. Guess simple minds find simple things funny. I too was gone for a while and I remember now that it was because of the lack of intelligent debate here. So i may agree with the title now....but not as you would suppose.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

yeah that was hilarous...:thumbsup

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Speaking of simple minds, if you read real careful, you will see that the idea that the posters was stupid was dismissed.

Well, you did score higher than your age didn't you?

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Okay, if you continue to insult me, I will just find another forum. This is really childish. I am happy to debate with you, but stop calling me stupid.

I took offense because of the following:

1. The title was "Intelligence Is Still Important" and then the beginning of the post, "In response to recent postings from our dogmatic hardliner friends."

2. The highlighted statement, "Morality is conventional, a matter of serving the social order and tradition or doing your duty as defined by some authority like the church, a teacher, a parent or the state. This large group is the glue of society but given the wrong authority it (and the two groups below it) may do horrible things in the name of morality."

3. The quote from Mark Twain and the last comment. ""In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's...

He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven...."

-Mark Twain-

"Nothing new under the sun, eh Mr. Twain?"


I'm not as stupid as you might think. You don't even know me, so how can you assume stupidity is the reason for my beliefs? You didn't even pay any attention to the list of names either. I am willing to bet that each of the men on my list are MUCH smarter than you. Quit resulting to childish accusations and let your scripture knowledge speak for itself. Oh wait a minute, you haven't posted any scripture. BTW, I didn't get what I believe from my pastor. I stand for many things that he doesn't stand for. Get your facts straight.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

If creating a thread entitled "Intelligence Is Still Important" is calling you stupid, then is creating a thread entitled "Holiness Is Still Important" calling him unholy?

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I was a brand new member of AFF when I posted the original article, so it was not a response to anything. I am merely borrowing his words, "In response to".

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Well, apparently, he felt there was something to respond to. Just sayin'.

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This country's stance on freedom of speech is visually evident in everyday life and I support it wholeheartedly. The flip side to F.O.S. is when you attack someone's character or intelligence, you should expect a rebuttal. We're supposed to be Apostolic's, so we shouldn't be attacking each other at all.

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I love irony!

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Very well said.

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Sorry that I haven't responded before now. I will go ahead and take you at your word, but please consider your phrasing on future posts. Review my earlier post on this thread where I pointed out what was offensive. I don't hate you, but I don't like to be insulted. Whatever your intention, all is forgiven..

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

:kiss :pirate

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I love a happy (so far) ending (so far). :)

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Stick around......the FLAMES will come back!! :toofunny

:rant

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Ummmm was this in response to my very short paragraph or are lessons in quoting the person you are responding to necessary?

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I’m delighted that you are able to “forgive” me of my “trespass”, although, as stated earlier, I never singled you out for a personal attack in the first place. Instead of believing that this thread was some kind of underhanded maneuver to attack you personally, why don’t you consider it for what it really is? A. My creative attempt at presenting a human psychological/social phenomenon in the big picture-aerial view format. B. A rebuttal to erroneous, chronically appearing doctrines which purport themselves to be moral law, but in actuality, oppose the fundamental tenets of Christian truths and sound reasoning. So, excluding an endorsement for the quantification of intelligence, I stand by everything that I’ve posted in this thread, and unashamedly so. I have reviewed your claims of damage, and, although I find them unfounded, am glad to be standing in your good favor again, whoever you are.

If you would consider Timmy’s quote above, (and I must say, it’s a classic) then you must realize that your implications cut both ways. By claiming me to be an insulting bully on the basis of my thread title, you are, in fact, calling out everyone on this forum who rejects your view of holiness as being unholy and unfit for God’s kingdom. How so? Because you assume the position of attaching holiness to church membership rules (possibly indoctrinated into you by other men) which, at minimum, carries a tendency to reduce all other believers outside of certain doctrinaire circles to sinner-slum-Christian-wannabes who can’t quite hack it with the big boys. For starters, let us briefly examine one of the many assertions that you’ve made on AFF recently.
:hmmm These are your statements above from your thread, “Holiness Is Still Important.” It seems quite clear to me that you are calling your brethren “compromisers” (of truth) if they choose to own or watch t.v., but please, correct me if I’m wrong. If you do stand by the above, then I must let you in a little secret. Asceticism and personal consecrations do have the ability to enhance your life, but defrauding and dividing your brethren by attempting to umpire their spirituality is flat out despicable imo. I would hope the men you mentioned in previous posts do not promote half of what you asserted in your thread, but if they do, I could tell you that their positions would be eaten alive in a classroom of college undergrads, much like a piranha shredding a sick cow in deep water. Believe me, I’ve played that side of the board with black, and it’s checkmate before you get out of the opening. Anyhow, welcome to AFF, and welcome to “growing pains.”

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

the thread is mocking a thread on holiness standards....no matter how many words you use denying.....and the ones being called stupid had their replies quoted....no matter how the poster attempts to deny...

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

Aren't you jumping to conclusions here, PF? Sir Noe Tick didn't cast aspersions on anyone. He was merely responding to to complaints like: "Their (AFF's) intellectual approach to everything has caused them to be reprobate concerning the faith."

The remarks about the various "IQ levels" would seem to indicate that the higher you go "intellectually" the more isolated you may become socially. Perhaps that is why some will decry an "intellectual approach" to matters of philosophy and belief as being "reprobate."

Re: Intelligence Is Still Important
 

I guess I missed something as well. What thread did Noe duck out of in order to start this "mocking thread?"

I just took the whole thing to be his usual thoughtful ruminations and as a sort of request for comment. Just because he posted something about "IQs" doesn't mean he suspects or even could know just exactly how you or anyone else scores.

Don't be intimidated by the subject matter and as a result attack the poster. Either engage the topic or ignore it. It's your choice.

And FWIW - I met Sir Noe Tick by arguing with him. I've forgotten exactly what we quarreled about, but he earned my respect; not always my agreement - but my respect.