Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one too many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by Jeanie (Post 93113)

Good question---sorry can't answer myself--Keith was never licensed with the UPC and the town that we live in already has an UPC church.

We do go to many UPC functions and visit UPC churches though.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by Carpenter (Post 93281)

I miss the fellowship of some people
I have come to not miss the worship but only because after being exposed to it after a while of not having it, I have realized that a vast majority of the bumpity bump bump songs are somewhat hype, getting folks worked up and all.

The preaching...yes and no. I heard preaching yesterday that I thought at the time were more about motivation, positive thinking and principals that were encouraging, and inspiring, but it bothered me that ALL this only came from ONE VERSE of scripture as a text.

It is difficult sometimes distinguishing between propaganda, hype, and passion. Pentecost should be about individual passion and not necessarily expressive passion for purposes of folks demonstrating how spiritual they are.

Sold out to what?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by Carpenter (Post 93281)

I miss the fellowship of some people
I have come to not miss the worship but only because after being exposed to it after a while of not having it, I have realized that a vast majority of the bumpity bump bump songs are somewhat hype, getting folks worked up and all.

The preaching...yes and no. I heard preaching yesterday that I thought at the time were more about motivation, positive thinking and principals that were encouraging, and inspiring, but it bothered me that ALL this only came from ONE VERSE of scripture as a text.

It is difficult sometimes distinguishing between propaganda, hype, and passion. Pentecost should be about individual passion and not necessarily expressive passion for purposes of folks demonstrating how spiritual they are.

Sold out to what?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by ReformedDave (Post 93328)

As for the 'passion' and 'sold-outness', for the most part(not all) the people of my generation that I'm aware of in the local UPC are hypocritical and self-deceiving.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 93334)

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

You miss:[/B]

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

Originally Posted by Tech (Post 93339)

I find all these things in the church i attend.UPC does not have a lock on these things.:preach

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 93334)

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 93354)

Do you really believe the majority of UPC churches engage in psychological conditioning?

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 93354)

Do you really believe the majority of UPC churches engage in psychological conditioning?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 93331)

Pretty strong ... don't you think????

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 93334)

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed (Post 93398)

Good post CC1! I agree that the level of commitment one sees in the UPC is very much influenced by their emphasis on standards which must be adhered to, and their belief that they have what the other churches don't have such as holiness, truth, anointed worship and preaching, etc. In other words they have a cause!

I also agree that there is a lot of hype involved in their worship. The need for instant gratification through constant shouting by the congregation during the preaching tends to promote theatrics and wild statements made that ignite the crowd but has little to do with sound biblical truth. This is problematic in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93580)

Thanks for all the :2cents !

For the most part I see the sincerity behind the standards. You might could miss that on some people, but I think I understand why in some cases.

It's almost like this. It kind of reminds me of many homeschoolers. Some, and I emphasis some, are defensive at the outset because they are so sick of being interrogated and criticized for what they are doing. I think, in a way, UPCer's feel this way - a little defensive.

Under all the "culture", "fervor" or "emotionalism", if you want to term it that, I see a hungry people for the things of God.
I've been around some women....... well, anyway........

And my point on that being - When the Spirit of God prevails you find a group of people more aware of their love for their creator and aware of their commitment which goes beyond the standard of dress.

If I could express it the way that I feel. I just see some people that are doing what they feel they need to do, being unhappy with some things they don't understand, but not feeling it is something they would even want to change and knowing that unless God opened some other door it would be best to stay where you are.

When God is in the house no one really cares about anything else or what people think.

I believe that wherever someone is led of God to service - then serve in that place. If He moves you - move with Him.

Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 93638)

Some leave because of carnality, wanting a more worldly church.

Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 93638)

Some want stronger standards than what they see. It really depends on what end of the spectrum you left on. Many souls are finding Independent Apostolic fellowships are better for them than UPC churches, and some go the opposite direction. It is really a matter of why a person left in the first place.

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 93630)

If a church is a substitute for "family" and fills the social needs of individuals, of course leaving for whatever reason leaves a huge void.

Our leaving, over twenty-five years ago was because all of the above left a void in our seeking and fulfilling God's calling in our lives. If you have enough services and fellowships you can feel fulfilled without much relationship with Jesus.

The number one calling for a Christian is to "know God" in a personal and intimate relationship, this requires a broad knowledge of the Word of God, and personal and continual fellowship with Him. Services and fellowship is not the same thing as what I have described above.

Then number two calling is "what has He called you to do? And doing it as an outflowing of your relationship with Him.

If you have to have constant input from preachers, in the form of Bible stories with a cute twist, you don't have relationship with Jesus. If you couldn't go to your church would you still walk with God?

I don't miss any of what we left, we still have relationship with those that were our friends for the most part. I don't mean for this to sound as bashing, the UPC was a very important part of growth, it was the path God lead us thru, He is our Lord we only desire to go where He leads.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93657)

You have to do what you have to do. I understand.

I've been in some terrible church situations, but God always opened a door - He either moved the man or moved us. It's all about waiting.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93108)

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt (Post 93878)

I have no idea what you are referring too? There is the same and in some cases as much passion, preaching and more gifts of the spirit in the oneness non-upc church I attend today.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt (Post 93878)

I have no idea what you are referring too? There is the same and in some cases as much passion, preaching and more gifts of the spirit in the oneness non-upc church I attend today.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 93892)

She is thinking more like my church and other exUPC PCI type churches.

There are a few wilder ones like apparently yours and the Cupples but they are probably the exception and not the rule.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93914)

No, I wasn't thinking of anyone's church. I just posted the statement that was made on another thread pointing out that it wasn't the first time I've read this on the Forum - FCF, NFCF or AFF.

I just wanted to know why people seem to miss it so much, but then leave. It just sounds like regret to me.

I just think that anyone that leaves any church needs to find another and it doesn't make any difference to me where they go. I just believe that along with your personal devotion church is also a good thing. They work together.

People also get hurt by others. When you see people fail that teach you will go to hell for not doing this or dressing like that, well, it's hard to take, so I understand that part of it.

I'm not standing in judgment of anyone's lives or decisions. I was just wondering.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 93920)

I don't miss it. It was a relief for me to get away from the cheerleading and shockamoo. I don't see it as biblical at all although if others want to do it that is their business. I know they are doing it out of sincerity (most of them anyway)and because they think it is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 93824)

Being out of the UPC for over 10yrs, I'll give my observations once again. What do I miss from not being in the UPC? What I miss the most is the close fellowship with like-minded pastor friends.

That aside...

Good services? We have them.
Great music? We have it.
Anointed preaching? Have that too!
Awesome worship? Got it!!
Oneness teaching? Got it covered.
Gifts of the Spirit? Ditto.
Joy of the Lord? Bingo!!
Politics? Nada
Judgement? Zippo
Fear mongering? Zero!


We have folks who live over an hour away who attend NLC who used to be UPC. They attend because the oneness is very important to them, but they no longer want to get beat up with "sundry and various" extra-biblical requirements. Honestly, these are some of the most God-fearing folks among us!

All they want is to worship and serve God in freedom and liberty, not licenciousness and sin.

To some others, standards are so important that they will do almost anything to find a place where they are preached staunchly. I respect that as well. But that ain't us! :D

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 93930)

I have never missed leaving UPC either.

However, being raised UPC it's in my blood almost. It's what I connect with because of my roots and all the memories. It is what made me who I am today.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 93937)

So, it made you? Who are you today?

This is a good discussion!

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 93952)

Absolutely!

Who am I today?

I am a good person, solid beliefs, have a personal relationship with Jesus, know what it takes to be saved and plan on it!