I Corinthians 12:8-10
 

I'm confused as to why the working of miracles would be seperate from the gifts of healing.

Also wondering why "gifts" was used in a plural form.

not all miracles are healings???

Not all healings are miracles???

I hear an echo...echo....echo

Now to the next question why would "gifts" be in the plural form? Could it be that it was because the gifts of healing were not as supernatural as we have thought. Could it be a reference to God's giving of medical knowledge to the physicians of the day?

Could it?

cute ......just like the puppy.

What puppy?

For what it's worth verse 9 uses the plural of the word Charisma ... in the Greek text ....

Charisma

xa/risma from (5483)Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Charisma khar'-is-mah

Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

The Greek word "kharisma" is actually more rightly interpreted "divine favor". It come from the word "kharizesthai" which means - TO FAVOR. And the root of that is "kharis" is simply the noun "favor" The word is completely consistent with talents as opposed to miraculous supernatural manifestations

At first glance, I'm thinking Miracles are normally defined as an instantaneous event - though not always. Healings could be a slower process. I'll be right back with more on this subject.

Well .. you're late.

Sorry, I was called away for a moment. Consider the following. Do you agree with these two paragraphs?

The gift of healings refers to supernatural healing without human aid; it is a special gift to pray for specific diseases.

Healing can come through the touch of faith (James 5:14-15); by speaking the word of faith (Luke 7:1-10); or by the presence of God being manifested (Mark 6:56; Acts 19:11-12).

And what about this?

A miracle is the performance of something which is against the laws of nature; it is a supernatural power to intervene and counteract earthly and evil forces. The word miracles comes from the Greek word dunamis which means "power and might that multiplies itself." The gift of miracles operates closely with the power gifts of faith and healings to bring authority over Satan, sickness, sin, and the binding forces of this age.

Miracles can also be defined as supernatural intercessions of God. God exhorts us with energy to do something that is not natural or normal to us. Just as the ministry gift of miracles is the expression of prayer, so is the function of the Holy Ghost to direct our prayers (Romans 8:26).

Before I comment on this I want to say to PP thanks for being open for discussion. I believe us lowly saints are worthy of much more than the one word responses. Some of which I have rec'd of late. HERE. DO AS I SAY DO is done. I also want to extend the same to Daniel. If I've missed you, sorry.




James 5:14-15 in my assesment has little to do with "touch" and much to do with "prayer" If its touch then how much different is it from the magic hair?

Speaking a word still lends to the notion that there is some conduit necessary for the miraculous.

The last reference is the most important. God heals because, 1. he can 2.he wants to. Can I blame my mother's lack of faith for her not getting healed of her deafness? She had hands laid on her many times. She's been in his presence many times. She's had words spoken over her many times. IN fact my former pastor told me it was to do with her having some "spirit" in her. HOGWASH! I believe God can and does heal. Why would anybody on the "witnessing the miraculous" thread have any reason to lie to me.

Our touching, words or faith has nothing to do with it. God heals to build faith not justify it.

If anybody cares to address the possibility that the "gifts" were medical knowledge given in a time when it was few and far between.

It's not that a conduit is necessary, it is that this is God's way of doing things sometimes. Remember... we are talking about spiritual gifting. God imparts supernatural gifts to heal and work miracles. He imparts these gifts to imperfect people. So yes, sometimes we are the conduits by which God chooses to move. That, my friend, is bible.

If our faith, touch, and words have nothing to do with it - why are we commanded to speak to mountains, lay hands on the sick, and please God through our faith? Is God just playing mind games with us? I think not.

The bottom line is this is what He chooses. We can argue about all sorts of things and why they are necessary, but God stands resolute in all of our questioning waiting for us to realize that His good stuff comes to those who simply trust and obey His words and will.

so even though a conduit is not necessary God chooses a conduit. Right now I'm not believing that God gives certain ones special abilities or my mother would have been healed. Unless all these guys are nothing more than UPCI Benny Hinns.

I can please God thru my faith all day long and still have nothing to do with healing. Please connect metaphoric mountains with healing. I don't think God is playing games. I do think however that we cannot fully understand all things.

If someone knows of someone that has this gift of healing please let me know. I'm serious!

My mom has been praying for healing for years. She is a conservative UPCIer. In church all her life and full of the Holy Ghost. If someone has this gift I will pay all expenses to get you to her!

I have been used in the gifts of healing, and yes it is plural in that there are specific aliments that people have authority over, but remember it is a gift of the spirit that flows through a believer.

You can't manufacture it, but I can be developed and as somone grows in their obedience and sensitivity to the Lord this gift will become more and more manifested in the life of said believer.

By the way where do you live?

Have you considered it may not be God's will for her to be healed? As horrible as it sounds, that may be true. Her living for God and overcoming physical suffering may bring him glory.

What I mean is that her lack of healing may have nothing to do with the gifting and faith of preachers, saints or herself. It may not be what God wants. There is scriptural precedent for such a thing.

Metaphoric mountains? The idea Jesus was espousing was that our faith (which is given by Him) moves things - it changes things. If you disagree with the idea that God uses His body you are espousing a deity that is not active and alive in people.

Shouldn't have used the metaphoric mountain term I'm sorry.

Wonder if the last few guys that have addressed her hearing loss considered her inibility to be healed? Like the one that told me it was due to spirits? Or the ones that have led her on with "preacher speak" like "its coming" "its already happened just claim it" so on etc etc.

Why aren't the healing arts more prevalent in our times?

Normally your posts are reasoned, sound and bibilical but I disagree with you on this.

Yes suffering has its place, but in the NT this was never the issue when it comes to sickness to use it for suffering.

Yes for chastisement, but to develop some etheral character trait or fruit of the spirit no. Would you purposely give your child a illness, affliction to develop character?

Now the real reason is why are people not healed?

Faith is paramount. The faith of the person being prayed for and person doing the praying.

Timing, is this the Lord's time. Example John 5, Jesus only healed one person at that porch, while there were many there who needed healing. Matter of fact the man that Peter and John raised in Act 3, Jesus passed him numerous times, and yet didn't minister because it wasn't time.

The right person hasn't prayed for her, Just are there are preachers with authority and giftedness and you wouldnt allow a unseasoned preacher to preach a major conference, there are people gifted with authority to heal, has she been prayed for by the right person?

Although we are touched by one and the same Spirit, we and our gifts are different. The Spirit of the Lord is the one who heals, but we are not used by the Spirit in the same way nor to the same degree.

So God uses faith to justify?

Not sure the connection to healing, but yes we are justified by faith.

Wow, there is so much to consider there.

First of all, I believe God can give a prophetic word to someone for your mom. Second, there are all sorts of folks who parrot a style or saying they ahve seen in the past. They replace faith with hype with , substance with style, and Spirit with flesh. There will always be a counterfeit wherever something real has historically succeeded.

The healing arts aren't more prevalent because, frankly, we just don't need them anymore. We are a church hooked on meds and docs and stupid new age ideas from Dr Phil and Oprah and the like. I mean with all of that, who really has time to call on God?

In speaking specifically to the lack of spritual gifts in operation in the church we must consider that this sort of activity is met with doubt. It is not fashionable or hip. Meanwhile the Charismatics are soaking up everything they can get no matter how silly it looks.

Kutless ....

When God says NO ... it's no ... and I say that with all trepidation and human sorrow.

It's been the hardest thing I've had to learn about HIM.

During the close to thirty years ... of my Dad's ministry he laid his hands on many and they were healed ... or healed instanteously ....

Here was a man who lived a Godly and holy life ... as close to perfect ... and he was dying of a liver disease that resulted from drug use before he came to Christ ....

We prayed ... fasted ... the church locally and nationally did the same ... and his condition only worsened ....

We tried a live donor liver transplant ...

all the state of the art testing said we were compatible and ready to go ... we were using one of the best transplant hospitals and surgeons in the world .... they even cut me open w/ my Dad waiting to be reeled in for the exchange....

all to our surprise ...

God said ...no ... to our prayers and to the medical field ....

not even the best technology in the word could detect that my liver had an anomaly .... and so I was sewn back up and Dad died 6 months later ...

With all this ... I know God has given through His Spirit ... the supernatural gift of healing .... the Word and my experiences give witness to this ... Remember ... folks were healed when Peter's shadow pass them by ....

We are but threads in a beautiful tapestry God is weaving ....

I know ... as Job ... our Redeemer lives .... and

... know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. (NRSV)

Dan...

I love you bro.


Thanks for sharing that with us.

I know it was tough to go through it, and to relive it for the post...

You're one of my favorite people in this world... and I'm honored to know you.

Praying for you bro.

I am not proposing that God caused the sickness, I am proposing that God does allow His children to be afflicted. If this were not so none of us would ever die from sickness. I believe that "many are the afflictions of the righteous".

We cannot propose (outside of supernatural knowledge) to know the mind and will of God regarding every persons illness. Paul said that he had learned to be content in whatever state he was in. If God heals me, I will praise Him. If He chooses not to, I will praise Him.

Blessed be the Name of The Lord in all things.

Sorry to hear, it parellels the story of John Wimber, the most profiecent healer in the last 20 years, prayed for many who were healed. But died of a stroke, after suffering with cancer, angina, etc. Age 63.

Yes God does say no, but very rare. But there is a time appointed unto man.

I really appreciate this post. I felt something lift from me when I read it. God bless you!

I agree, but we can be aggressive and faith filled in seeking for the Kingdom. We are not promised all of the Kingdom now, but its not my job to figure out how much he gives, but to get all that he is giving. Thy Kingdom come, they will be done. I don't see that as a cop out, because there is much in the kingdom that he wants for us to enjoy.

Very good, but here is the danger I have seen play out so many times in ministry. A man, operating in faith, makes a claim that God has already accomplished something in a sick persons body. The sick person goes away believing with all of her heart that the work is done, only to find out that it isn't.

This has the opposite effect of what was intended. Doubt replaces faith. I believe my Savior has my best interest in mind. I believe He will do what is best for me. I ask and believe for healing, but accept His will in all things. My relationship with Him is one of trust. I lean on Him for everything. He orders my steps. He knows the way I take. " Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death - I will fear no evil..... for thou art with me".

It's okay to question, Kutless ... great men of God did ... Job, David, Isaiah and many more did also.

... My abdomen bares a large scar ... that reminds me daily ... of when God says no ... and when I start doubting and sulking ...

He reminds of a lifetime of countless prayers in which he has said YES.

He's still GOOD.

:highfive

I am glad my story blessed you today.

When I do my gifts of the spirit seminar/clinic I teach people that we don't deny symptoms. Healing is progressive, but if there isnt a change of some kind or God hasn't directed to us in some other way, I don't claim healing if there is no healing present. That is one of the problems and tragedies of the Word of Faith, they present an over balanced view of faith, so that our faith is removed from being in God, to being in our faith.

But something that he has promised in his word, if I am not receiving it or see it on a regular basis then maybe I am not appropriating it right.

I would simply call it 'unbalanced', not 'over balanced', but what you spoke here is the truth.

It's become 'stand alone' to them... and thus removed God and His plans that only he knows... from the equation completely.

True.