Godhead Question
 

Ok, I lean heavily toward Oneness, even though I hate using that title, because it's divisive. But tonight Eddie was using a scripture during his message that really is hard to understand from that viewpoint. When the Word talks about Jesus being the mediator between us and God, how does that work into a Oneness view? Seriously, I'm trying to wrap my brain around this.

I'm going to bed, so I will read your responses in the morning. G'night!

Re: Godhead Question
 

As always, Jesus and God should not be viewed as two beings here. Rather, in the general sense, Jesus, because of who he is (both God and man) can mediate our case.

Because he is one of us, a "kinsmen", he can effectively plead our case to God as he exists beyond the incarnation.

It helps to get some clarity of the terms.

I like to say the Son, Jesus Christ was God in and through the incarnation, while the Father is God beyond and outside the incarnation.

Therefore it makes sense to say the Son (who knew the struggles and limitations of humanity) could effectively plead and mediate our case to the Father (who is God apart from the incarnation, and offer Himself as a willing sacrifice for the sins of humanity.

Re: Godhead Question
 

It is like a victim advocate (in the legal system) of sorts. He (Jesus) was the go between for us. The difference was he was the son of God (flesh of) as ou advocate. It would be like the judge was also our advocate (our inside man). Since Jesus was the mediator/the lamb and the judge there is/was no way for us to lose. Hope this helps. Truth is since are humans trying to understand the God of all its hard to wrap our minds around much of what He did or does. IMO

Re: Godhead Question
 

Jesus Christ mediated between God and men on the cross. Verse 6 even explicitly explains how he mediated between God and men: he gave himself a ransom for all. In fact, one might could think of the cross as all the mediation mankind will ever need ;)

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I hope that helps.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Also consider he is our mediator simply in knowing and seeing God.

Since the Bible says "no one has seen God at any time" I think Jesus was letting us know to find God all we need is HIM.

[44] Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
[45] And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. John 12:44-45

[5] Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:5-9

Note that Jesus does not teach us to try to know the Father apart from knowing him like Phillip desired. Jesus draws his focus right back to himself.

In this sense his is our "go between". Knowing him is knowing the Father. Seeing him is seeing the Father.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Wow, jfrog, this isn't what I was thinking, but it is so good, I think I'll change my thought! :thumbsup

Re: Godhead Question
 

Re: Godhead Question
 

I'm a simple man. In my mind I see the Father as the one and only Almighty God. I believe that this God took his Word (thought, plan, idea, expression) and made it flesh and blood. That plan of God was Jesus. Jesus was the Son of God, an authentic human being in every way. Distinct from the Father as to his full humanity. However, the Son (the man Jesus Christ) is united with the Father in an unexplainable and inseparable spiritual Oneness so that each nature is shared. Hence the Father, through Christ partakes of the human nature. And the Son, through the indwelling divinity of the Father, partakes in the divine nature. The very person of Christ Jesus is a reflection of the very person of the Father in human flesh. Thus in Christ Jesus, only one "person" is revealed; the Father.

Re: Godhead Question
 

I totally agree, but that Scripture is still hard to think through. Maybe it's just me.....

Re: Godhead Question
 

In the beginning was the "thought". The thought was with the thinker; and the thought was the thinker. ;)

Re: Godhead Question
 

The man Christ Jesus did think differently from the Father at least one time.

[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[40] And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
[41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
[42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Matt. 26:39-42

Messiah seemed to be capable of independent thought. Yet he prayed through and always did the Fathers will and not his own.

To me this does nothing to hurt Oneness doctrine. It simply demonstrates that in his humanity he was dependant upon the Father both for direction and for power to obey.

Re: Godhead Question
 

The Son is the man in whom God is incarnate. The man Jesus Christ is the human tabernacle of the Father.

Re: Godhead Question
 

uh pretty simple... God had a actual Son in whom that Son realized the very authentic expression of God's nature in him in that they where one. Yet he grew in knowledge and obedience by what he experienced. God HAS A SON and the very source of the SONS deity is that of the divine indwelling that is part of his nature. He learns and thirsts yet he gives everlasting truth and living water. That they may be one as we are one. In the end when we are glorified this will be complete!

Re: Godhead Question
 

The Son Jesus, while being God, had the added benefit (or willing limitation) brought about by his genuine humanity therefore his speech and prayers reflect the same.

"Beings" and "persons" have to be specifically and narrowly defined before they apply to the Godhead at all.

I would rather just say Christ, though He was God, willingly took upon Himself the limitations of humanity to be our kinsman redeemer. The Father in heaven was simply God beyond those limitations.

Not sure that I agree that it is confusing, but the entire concept of the incarnation is somewhat incomprehensible. God reconciling the world unto Himself through a cross... I am glad he did!

Re: Godhead Question
 

Just want to, like Sherri, ask some questions and interact as well.

You obviously interpret John 1 in the traditional Oneness way. You read that the Logos is the "thought, plan, idea, expression." But when you say he "made his thought, idea, expression flesh" I wince. Jesus was "begotten of the Father." GOD "sent" His Son. The way most Oneness describe John 1, it's no wonder people believe in Divine flesh to me. And John 1:2 complicates things by referring to the logos with a personal pronoun, "He." How can a thought, expression, concept or idea now be a personal pronoun? And this Logos, according to John 1, participated in Creation according to the next verse.


"However, the Son (the man Jesus Christ) is united with the Father in an unexplainable and inseparable spiritual Oneness so that each nature is shared." I absolutely agree!

In fact, the second half of your writing went from Oneness handling of John 1 into what could very accurately be written by a Trinitarian in the second half. I think that's how close we are.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Nothing you said after "pretty simple" was pretty simple.

Just an FYI.

Re: Godhead Question
 

So, it wasn't just me? :toofunny

Re: Godhead Question
 

If the Son is God incarnate, then the Son is God. Sherri is wondering how God (incarnated as the Son) can be the mediator between Himself and man. Normally, a mediator is not one of the two parties in mediation!

Re: Godhead Question
 

I don't see it as difficult to understand. Think of you being one with God in which you and him are in perfect interaction and he is the very part of your being. God had a Son who was the very expression of himself his nature/image into flesh. This child who's being is the result of this was like us but with perfect relationship in which he breathed the Father as part of this very being and the Father was one and Jesus could truly say I and my Father are ONE. Sorry not difficult at all.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Exactly. If the Son if "God in a flesh body" then he is God fully.

This gets into how the fully God, fully man dichotomy works. If I am fully man, I am void of the divine. Right? If I am fully man, I am FULLY man. But as soon as you add that I not only have Divine attributes, but am, in fact, the Almighty, then how can I also be a man? If one is "fully" one, he cannot be both. There's no room!

Just thinking out loud on the topic.

The explanation always pushes us toward mystery, and this is where I feel both Oneness and Trinitarians venture into areas we don't fully know, but we have fun talking about.

Re: Godhead Question
 

I think we should not see this as JC cutting a deal with his daddy... :)

The mediation was achieved by representation of the human race (Christ was one of us - our kinsman) to divinity, and was accomplished in full on the cross. It is the single event of the cross that continues mediation on our behalf - not two beings sitting at a negotiating table.

Re: Godhead Question
 

If I am "one with God" (I take that to mean in unity?), then we are still two separate people. Like a husband and wife, joined together and are "one flesh." This is a metaphor for their unity?

How does God have a Son? If God has a Son, it's "from him," "out of Him," "begotten of Him," meaning it is NOT Him. It is distinct. There may be unity, but there's quite a distinction.

Your description is quite difficult. Maybe simple to you. But to say the Godhead is simple... just baffles me.

It's no wonder Divine Flesh is popular. Some Oneness renderings of the Incarnation have God wearing a flesh costume, with working nerves, emotions, etc, but behind the costume, he is still GOD. My friend, that's not being FULLY man. That's God wearing a special costume that he designed.

Re: Godhead Question
 

But what does that mean in reality. We know what it means in representation, in type, in symbolism. But what does that mean. How does that look?

Were Christ and the Father distinct?

Re: Godhead Question
 

Indeed, there are distinctions between Christ, and the Father in heaven to whom He prayed. Those distinctions arise primarily from the incarnation. Nevertheless these distinctions do not necessitate the existence of multiple beings in the Godhead.

A key is the willingness of Christ to take upon himself these limitations of humanity. Hence we have God within and God without the incarnation.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Well, you sort of do have 2 "beings"...in that Christ here on earth was a genuine human being in that he had a complete human nature, human will and mind

Re: Godhead Question
 

What I just described is not Divine flesh LOL! Yes the son is distinct in part. Yet he is also the divine Father expressed by the Son. The Son is a real man. LOL! I said HE HAD A SON! Think about that and recompute! God is still one and he is Father but the Son partakes of his nature do to him being his Word expressed. The Son learned obedience and grew in stature etc... The Father was apart of him. Is this two Gods? No! You have one God expressed and realized in a man who was a his Son. In him we know the Father and only will know the Father. As the Father goes so does the Son. He could speak as limited in time, space and understanding but also as him who Abraham saw and existed from the beginning. Why because the Father was apart of him. As the Father moved him to speak he would speak and yet he would cry out to the Father that was in him and was created by him.

Re: Godhead Question
 

As Sabin would say. It's not do we have two.... it's two what.

Re: Godhead Question
 

This only works if we are defining God as a human "being".

Seems we can say it two ways...

One Human being who was also God, though God also existed beyond this mode.

Or

One God defined as a "being" who existed in simultaneous modes.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Who is Christ apart from the incarnation? The Father? So did you mean "the willingness of the Father to take upon himself these limitations of humanity?"

How was the Logos involved with Creation prior to the incarnation?

If Christ is fully God, did he truly have the full limitations of humanity??

Re: Godhead Question
 

I didn't say you described Divine Flesh (at least not your intent), but based on your response, I can understand how people make that logical leap.

The son is a real man. But you also believe the Son is fully God.

This fleshly birth in Bethlehem, the expression of God, he is not spatially apart from God? He is "sent?" How is the Father "a part of him" when it sounds like he is "apart from him?"

The Father moved him to speak? So Jesus was a man moved on by God? I thought Jesus was also fully God?

I'm not suggesting you or anyone believe in two gods, divine flesh, etc... I'm asking questions. Godhead in one sense is beautiful, and in another, is messy and confusing.

Re: Godhead Question
 

How can God be confined to a human being at all?

The simultaneous modes is quite mysterious, and I think it's as plausible as other theories about the godhead.

Re: Godhead Question
 

Apart from the incarnation Christ was God - the same essence as the Father.

The willingness of God to take upon himself... The term "Father" arises out of the incarnation.

Involved through the deity He shared with the Father - certainly not as a separate being.

I don't think I said FULL limitations...

Re: Godhead Question
 

Who said confined?


IMO the terms persons and beings are inadequate in Godhead discussions - especially by current definitions.

Re: Godhead Question
 

If people can compartmentalize the topic then it's easier to see.

God is a person, like you and I, in that He is a rational, thinking, intelligent being, yet of much much more "power" than us.

God though, as a person, has a Divine nature. It's at the incarnation that Person picked up a human nature too and became in practical terms, a human being.

The one Divine Spirit that makes the Father "Divine" unifies both so that the Son is not separated from the Father. We can use the terms modes or manifestations or forms

Re: Godhead Question
 

So if we acknowledge two beings it's important to note we are dealing with two definitions of the word, right?

Re: Godhead Question
 

What you're saying here makes some sense for me.

However, the distinctiveness and apparent spatially separateness confuses the matter. If Christ is really God the Father in the incarnation, then how can the Son, which is really the Almighty in a flesh body, be fully human?

And the whole idea of the Son appealing to the Father in speech seems rather odd, if the Son is not just unified with the Father, but is literally the Father. Why the emphasis by NT writers to make these distinctions?

Also, Did the Jews believe the Messiah would be God Himself? Does the OT prophesy a Suffering Servant or...

Ahhh... why'd I start in on this thread. It's out my league. I've been in this knee deep, even taught on godhead on many occassions, but have never settled the matter... .and I feel like it's such an open topic.

Re: Godhead Question
 

How did God "become" a human?

If he only "put on humanity" then was he fully human? And if he only "wore humanity" why do we not agree with Divine Flesh teachers?

Re: Godhead Question
 

I can see in part it can be. Once you have a understanding of certain aspects and that The ONE GOD expressed his image and being into a child and that child was authentic in existance as a normal person who could say. I go unto my God and your God yet say, I AM he and many other sayings... you simply have a ONENESS of being of a authentic man who is God's unique Son and the Eternal God. Think about a man that knowledge is limited but yet hear and breath the divine revelation of God when the Father speaks and he speaks as his perfected mouthpiece. To be one in such a way is to truly be perfected. A Man that can feel the perfect love of God beyond measure and also know the depth of all creation. One Day we shall be like him.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one,45 himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God47 known.48

1 Person or 3?
 

Zec 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Zec 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses.

NET Zec 14:9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.

BTW in the bible "name" or "names" are used to signify person. A name often spoke of a person's character etc. For example the Son is named Jesus, because he will save his people from their sin. So when you said the name "Jesus" you were referring to a person.

Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples and said, (the number of names together was about a hundred and twenty,)

Php 4:3 And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments. And they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Re: Godhead Question
 

A being is generally anything that exists and how. Rocks are beings or have being, but they are not living beings.

A living being or being how we are using it, is a person and how that person exists or lives...God in His Deity is Spirit. God through the incarnation is flesh

There is one person who simultaneously is both Father (God in His Deity) and Son (God and His Deity incarnate)