Revival The Missing Link?
 

Here is how the Amish do it...

The main factor behind the growth is simple: Big families and a high “retention rate.”

"A new study estimates the number of Amish has increased nearly 10 percent in the past two years alone, to a total population of 249,000, compared with about 227,000 in 2008."


"They are sort of challenging some of the mainstream assumptions about progress and how you achieve the good life and happiness," said Elizabethtown professor Don Kraybill, the study's director. "They're not merely surviving; they're thriving, and growing at this very rapid rate."


The study focused on all Amish groups that use horse-and-buggy transportation, so it excluded such automobile-driving groups as the Beachy Amish and Mennonites.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100728/...thriving_amish

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...pulation-boom/

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

So...the key to revival is to....ahem "get busy"?

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I think it's worth considering whether Birth Control, while not actually sin, carries with it both intended and unintended consequences - all of which results in a reduction of devout Christianity.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

... AND a "high retention rate." Destroying your young people and belittling their efforts at "revival" will usually drive them away.

Lining them up and inspecting their underwear and sleeping garments before they are allowed to register for camp is another turn off.

Telling them that they cannot trust what their eyes and other senses tell them about the natural world while they are involved in educating themselves about that world will cause a disconnect that will lead to a great "falling away" as well.

I watched a couple of bus loads of "Old Order" looking Amish kids as they were being given a tour of Hollywood Boulevard at night back in February. The Amish leaders of the tour were excitedly pointing out the sites and all.

My sense was that there was an honest presentation of "the other side" and the views and culture outside their own little community. The kids seemed to be in the process of being given an honest look and evaluation of what they could be doing if they chose that life.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Hoovie,

Do you think that the high retention rate is due to the hamstringing of such a lifestyle that makes it very difficult to leave?

I am sure being part of a religious community doesn't make you a Christian, some of the retention rate must be due to not knowing anything else and the fear associated with leaving.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Some of it of course is, and perhaps even more than most denominations, I'll grant you that - but not necessarily most or all the retention is based on that.

I can think of several compelling reasons to go back to the Old Order lifestyle I abandoned 25 years ago.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Are any of these groups WPF?:lol

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

But don't you see a problem with the rate of conversions?

100 a year!!

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

It's probably 100 total actually.

Is it less desirable to retain 85% than to lose say 75% and fill that void with new converts? Hmmm,... I'll have to think about that.

I really did not post this thread to defend the Amish Christian religion, but rather question whether we are missing a key element in church growth.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Here is an Amish that would like to change evangelism.

Part one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhoz_...eature=related

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Why does it have to be one way or the other?

Also I would question that 85% retention rate is an 85% retention of believers rate.

They are retaining people to a lifestyle.

I wasn't asking you to defend them, but if evangelism were left only to the Amish the whole world would go to hell and they would keep expanding their little subculture.

That is hardly a revival.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Right and unless they introduce polygamy and start having more girls, that rate of growth is forever going to be slow...as it would even with polygamy

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Slow? I can't think of any American denom that's growing faster...

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

percentage wise? Let's talk about a denom that is growing larger based on new converts, not family members raised in the church.
If I start a new church org and win a soul...I have 100% growth rate.

If that convert stays for a year or 2...I have 100% retention...sounds impressive :toofunny

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

At what point does inbreeding become a major problem in a group that has no new blood introduced?

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I read an article once stating it was already a problem

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Isn't retaining people to a lifestyle the big issue now with the "Apostolic Identity" emphasis?

Isn't a great part of OP effort spent on "expanding their little subculture"? by emphasizing bringing people out of other churches and baptizing them in a unique way?

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

converting people to a Oneness view and re-baptizing them in what we view as a biblical formula, has been the norm for since before I joined a UPC. But it's not so much winning them and retaining them to a culture or lifestyle as it is a doctrine. Though many churches are enamored with the lifestyle as well insisting everyone conform...you know if you aint running the aisles you must be full of pride and all that

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I am puzzled. Are babies born into the families of Christians somehow of less value?

Impressive? Perhaps. But if he stays for a lifetime and multiplies by five to ten during that time you would have numbers that rival anything being produced by UPC AOG or the Southern Baptists.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

the point is, percentages really aren't all that impressive when viewed against the larger picture.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Yes. Though, the Amish may be very culture driven, and one might exist there for benefits aside from dedication to Christ, surely the same might be said of all church denoms.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Meaning their numbers are insignificant considering the overall size of the Amish?

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I think it depends on how big that pool is and what preexisting diseases are dormant.

In the case of the Amish, they have developed a few uniquely Amish diseases. Nevertheless, the Amish are considerably more healthy than other Americans including a lessor likelihood to develop diseases like cancers.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I don't see how birth rate equals revival.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

LOL! True it does not. I was using it a bit TIC but the same way most are using it today, meaning "church growth".


It does assume the Christian parents teach the child in the ways of the Lord and bring him to salvation not unlike any other convert that is "added to the church".

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Revival is not adding new members..it is reviving one's self..preachers look at the numbers..Church is a business..some have become cash cows..

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I think we here all understand that - but it's a point well taken. I was making a play on the word, according to it's most frequent use.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Very good video, it is thinking like the young man at the end that will change the Amish forever. "If what the leaders say, goes against the Word of God, it is the word of God that is the way to go." "The Amish are reading the Bible in English and are beginning to understand what it means, and questioning."

When folks start thinking for themselves and studying for themselves things begin to change. It is happening all over.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but some of us grew up in the world, and remember this spoof. Pretty funny stuff. Its not that far off from a "pentecostal paradise"

"Amish Paradise"
As I walk through the valley where I harvest my grain
I take a look at my wife and realize she's very plain
But that's just perfect for an Amish like me
You know, I shun fancy things like electricity
At 4:30 in the morning I'm milkin' cows
Jedediah feeds the chickens and Jacob plows... fool
And I've been milkin' and plowin' so long that
Even Ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone
I'm a man of the land, I'm into discipline
Got a Bible in my hand and a beard on my chin
But if I finish all of my chores and you finish thine
Then tonight we're gonna party like it's 1699

We've been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
I've churned butter once or twice
Living in an Amish paradise
It's hard work and sacrifice
Living in an Amish paradise
We sell quilts at discount price
Living in an Amish paradise

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

In a more serious post, I watched all 6 of the videos Hoovie posted. Pretty intersting stuff.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

meaning, all it is is an impressive stat when not compared to the bigger picture

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I thoroughly enjoyed Part 1. I will try and finish the next 5 tomorrow.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Several years ago when I was attending the local Vineyard Church one of the people in my prayer group was from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses. She and a couple family members had left that cult but most of them were still under JW control.

She told me that the internet was great as far as helping JW's. They could read the Word and hear testimonies and read teaching on the Word that they never would have heard in their JW cloistered environment under the control of the local leaders. People were receiving enlightenment and realizing that what they had heard and accepted for years was not Scriptural. They could begin thinking for themselves and have a relationship with God that was more than control by a religious institution.

The internet can also help those who are under the control of local UPC (and other) pastors. Sites like the Spiritual Abuse Site, Acts 18, and forums like this can be a source of enlightenment and people can be exposed to the Word, teaching, and testimonies from outside of what is some times a cloistered and controlled environment. People can think for themselves and have a relationship with God that is more than control by a religious institution.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I think you have a point. I'm thinking more of the retention of children born into the religion, rather than the number of children born into the religion. It appears to me (from my location here in the shadow of the Mother Ship (lol Hazelwood) that the retention of children born and raised Apostolic is much lower than that of the Amish.

Something from my personal experience, I live right next to a horse and buggy Amish community and growing up Apostolic I always felt a bit slighted in that my parents and church seemed to get more excited about new converts than us kids that were being raised in the church. I realize that wasn't your point specifically, just a memory this brought up for me. I remember thinking that my Amish friends parents were more focused on teaching and interacting with their children and my parents were all about participating in outreach programs for "the lost". Since I was homeschooled (except for a few years at a private Apostolic school), I had more interaction with the Amish kids then with "worldly" kids or even the Apostolic kids, because most of them went to public schools.

Not saying that all Apostolic parents are like that or even that all Amish parents are like that..

Another thing that I think is VERY key in the Amish retention rate vs. Apostolic retention rate (of children raised in the faith) is the way some Amish communities allow their children to experiment and make their own decision. (Yes, I realize that not all Amish communities practice rumspringa, but the one I live near does. Although they don't do it in the way depicted by Devil's Playground. LOL) When my Amish friends turned 16, some bought cars, went out in "worldly" clothes, etc. Their parents worried about them and prayed for them but didn't push them towards a decision. Most decided mainstream life was too stressful and officially joined the Amish church. When I turned 16 and sat down with my parents and told them I wanted to wear modest pants and didn't agree with the standards, they said as long as you live under our roof you'll be Pentecostal - standards and all! I left a few months later and never went back.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

According to the video you shared earlier in the thread the Amish consider it brazen and almost prideful or boastful to share the gospel with others.

That would leave growth through family growth as the main option.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

That's an interesting thought.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I love these people!!!! Wow, what courage!! What boldness, and calm strength!!

Can these characteristics only be birthed and maintained in a cloistered environment???

And like always, when one begins to take steps of faith, they are hit with circumstances that make them even stronger!!

I was referring to the couples in the video, that were questioning, and reading the Bible for themselves. This always creates problems with the "elders". It is just unbelievable that leaders could "shun" such passion and hunger for truth, what happens if the elders hear and join the search???

Hoovie, is your path from Amish similar to these folks??

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

My daughter made a comment that pretty much summed up my feeling when watching these videos, "They sound like the Roman Church of the dark ages."

The fact that they are forbidden to read and study the Bible is an amazing tool of Satan. While the folks in the video had genuine faith it makes me wonder how many Amish have a genuine faith in Christ and how many simply have a list of rules.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

I haven't watched the video's (can't access youtube right now) but I've never heard of Amish being forbidden to read or study the Bible. The Amish I know (horse and buggy Old Order Amish) do read their Bible, every day during their family devotions.

Re: Revival The Missing Link?
 

Ive posted this on FB as well, our relationship with Him is based in part on knowledge, really knowing Him personally is based in part in knowing about him from the word