Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Breaking news: California's Proposition 8, passed by the majority of California voters has been overturned as "unconstitutional."

Couple points and thoughts:

1) Is it ever okay for the State to overrule the will of the people? This seems to be a major argument. Think about slavery, civil rights, etc.

2) Can believers have diversity in political and legal opinion and hold unity in and opinion of these matters at a faith level?

3) Can we separate the religious nature of marriage from the legal one?

4) All the implications many feared -- how can those be protected?

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Communism.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Explain.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

People cannot choose what goes on.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

This guy is no raving liberal even if he is gay. He was originally nominated to the bench by President Reagan but his nomination was held up for the following:

He was renominated to the bench under President George Herbert Walker Bush in 1989 and confirmed. He's currently the Chief Judge of the Northern District of California.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Communism?

According to my legal buddies, Judge Walker never met a rich person he didn't favor in his court opinions. He was described to me as a staunch Libertarian, which is rather the opposite of communism, I think.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Not understanding what you're saying.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Yeah, many conservative Libertarians opposed Prop 8.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I don't care what his orientation is making this an equal protection claim is opening the door to all kinds of nonsense. Oh you wanna marry two men? Go for it. You wanna marry two goats...equal protection. Equal protection...what a joke.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

How do you think the Plaintiff's attorneys and/or the judge would response to that?

The two goats analogy is simple, since they don't have even basic human rights, nor would they ever request to be married :)

However, the polygamy argument certainly should get fired up again over this.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Point taken Baron. But I will never ever vote for someone who is openly gay.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Why not? What makes that person less worthy of your vote. Do you demand all candidates that you vote for to be believers?

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I think polygamy is sufficiently different. It's not a one-to-one relationship.

However it's worth thinking about this (from page 63 of the decision):

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I believe the judges are over stepping their authority.

The checks and balances are getting out of balance.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I think polygamy is sufficiently different. It's not a one-to-one relationship.

However it's worth thinking about this (from page 63 of the decision):


I'm not sure Geekette. Sufficiently different on the basis of one versus multiple? How does that overrule Equal Protection and basic rights? If a man has consenting partners that all wish to be married, how can that right be denied? On what basis? No one is harming the other, all are consenting, no rights are being denied (quite the opposite) -- the only differences are one of cultural toleration. Yes? No?

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

How so?

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Yes, blame the judges for applying the laws our forefathers made years ago. That definetely makes alot of sense.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

If he's gay he's a liberal.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

That so?

Know who the Log Cabin Republicans are? :)

Not good logic there.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Yeah, I'm thinking one versus multiple. Plus, I had originally wrote (and deleted) that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that at least in some formulations, polygamous relationships can be very unstable. From what I've read about the fundamentalist Mormon polygamist groups, wives and children were given to and taken away from men at the whim of the leader based on the loyalty of the man. (The women and children had no choice in the matter.) This does not indicate to me an equal relationship.

Now, there may be some equality-minded "polyamorous" relationships out there, but I don't know that they're clamoring for the right to get married.

It's my understanding that our neighbor to the north, Canada, may have to deal very soon with the issue of the legality of polygamous marriages under its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'll be interested to see what evidence is introduced in that case, when it happens. (The people who are arguing for it are related--in more ways than one--to the fundamentalist Mormons in northern Arizona.)

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

The same was said about same-sex marriage. In response, the same was said about heterosexual marriage. That's not good enough legally.

The example of child custody is a good one, though I suspect would not be the tell-all argument in favor or polygamy. Of course, even if there was a frumpy leader, we now have courts to settle those issues.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Maybe that's why some Republicans (Lindsey Graham, others) want to repeal the 14th Amendment, which grants birthright citizenship. The same amendment also has equal protection under the law in it.

Of course, the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were enacted in the wake of the Civil War. I'm not really sure we really want to go back there!!

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

It's not merely child custody, there are also the issues of property division and so on. I think you could make the argument that polygamy is sufficiently complicated enough and inherently unequal enough to be outside the mainstream. And considering how sneaky the fundamentalist Mormon polygamists go about it, it's apparent to me that they don't want to be in the mainstream. They'd rather have their underage marriages and their "prophet" yanking women and children away from one guy and giving them to another as a reward. *shudder*

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Seems they would have every right to choose to avoid "mainstream" if they pleased.

Complicated it may be. But unlawful? "Mainstream" was not the legal reason for overturning Prop 8.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Well yes - pretty much. I would likely not vote for an open Atheist either.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I don't see an issue with this. If the ban violated the Constitution, then it should be overturned.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Interesting. Well, at least that issue won't rule you out for voting for Pelosi hehe

So a Jewish man wouldn't get your vote? Does Mormon count as a believer? What about Catholic? Presbytarian? Methodist? Pentecostal?

And if they are a believer, how serious do they have to be to get your vote? How will you know?

I find Libertarians to be the most diverse group: many religious, irreligious all under same banner.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

I agree, and aren't homosexuals already legally able to have civil unions and religions ceremonies?

I heard a proponent saying how this was right, because God created them that way. Could this be less about civil rights and more about forcing a change of mind onto the American public? They have been doing it through Hollywood now for years,

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Just to argue from the other side a moment...

Homosexuals weren't able to have civil unions until they started this campaign for marriage. People who 10 years ago would have never even considered civil unions, suddenly were willing to compromise.

All the rest aside, you have an individual that desires to marry another.

Some say the Fed Gov and Northern States forced its will on the minds of the US over Civil Rights issues for a long time now....

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

If an animal does NOT have civil rights, then anyone should be able to marry a goat just as much as white people could force slavery on a black person who did not have civil rights or protections under the law

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Actually I think some would argue against that, that he was applying our laws. They would argue he was applying HIS interpretation of our laws

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Actually, an animal doesn't even have basic human rights, let alone the civil rights granted as a citizen of a state.

The rest of what you said I didn't follow.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

He cited the Equal Protection clause -- so technically, he applied the old law to a contemporary issue. No re-interpretation going on.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Homosexuals cannot adequately interpret the constitution for Christians.

"We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Adams

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

There liberal too!

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

You lost me. Are Jews and Mormons atheists? Catholic? Presbytarian? Methodist? Pentecostal?

How will I know my pastor is a believer? Confession is a wonderful thing!

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

That is my point. Animals have NO rights for someone to say a man can't forcibly marry his goat.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Technically, the goats don't have the same standing before the court as two human beings. A better analogy perhaps might be two first cousins or a brother and sister couple seeking a marriage license. Perhaps bigamists as well.

States have historically made exclusions to marriage licenses. There have been examples of such statutes that were wrong - inter-racial marriage prohibitions for example.

But "gay marriage" doesn't equate nor is it exemplary of inter-racial marriage. Inter-racial marriages were banned because of racist notions about the children of such unions. "Gay marriage" produces no children so the "racial" and discriminatory complaints don't even apply.

States have the right to control how children are "bred." It's an uncomfortable topic - but it is important. As a society we have stated that no marriage unions can exist between brother and sister and other closely related individuals because of the dangers of inbreeding. That is the basis of all marriage laws.

Gays do not represent anything even remotely related to "inbreeding" as they are not even breeding at all. Therefore, they have no standing (IMHO) in the marriage debate.

If a couple of bachelor gentlemen want to share housing to save expenses then it's probably not a whole lot of my business as long as they keep their lawns up. From my experience, these types tend to have fantastic lawns and gardens. So, hook up as you please, just don't come before the county clerk unless you have an issue involving human breeding.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Where liberal too?

The log cabin guys (and gals) tend to be very conservative on fiscal issues and (obviously) liberal on social issues. I wish that they would become more Libertarian on the social issues, however.

Social Liberals tend to do the same thing they accuse "The Right" of doing - legislating one version of "morality."

As far as these matters (sexual "orientation" and expression) do not infringe upon the rights of the rest of us and stay away from the obviously illegal types of behavior, they ought to be left alone.

I wish desperately that most of this stuff was just none of my business.

Re: Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!
 

Not the goats, the man. If a man wants to marry two goats, how do you argue against it under this ruling? Equal protection, what right do you have defining marriage as between two people?