John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The coucnil of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

PS-how does that work, before creation, mankind has not been created yet, does the "holy trinity" draw straws, a names out of hat, what? On what basis is one choosen to inherit eternal life, and the other eternal damnation?

Here's what I think of that doctrine :vomit

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

First off, like you said, I don't believe Trinitarians are going to hell (because of 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God)

However, on paper Trinity is 1 God, BUT IN PRACTICE, it is 3 Gods (I know they use persons...)

Take for instance, when a pastor preaches on:
Why we worship the Father, Why we worship the Son, and Why we worship the Holy Spirit? Any non-religious person would definitely think of 3 Gods, IMO

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Does anyone know how the positions in the trinity were determined? How do they know that the Father is the 1st person, Son is 2nd person, and Holy Spirit is 3rd person?

As in could the Son be the 1st person, the Holy Spirit the 2nd person, and the Father the 3rd person (Hope you get my drift...)

Links or Scriptures (preferably scriptures). Thanks

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I recommend a book that will help you in your quest...WHEN JESUS BECAME GOD by Richard E Rubeinstein

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

As has been stated, Trinitarianism on paper is Monotheistic. However when Trinitarians try to argue the Trinity or rather against other theologies like Oneness, they often end up describing the persons as though they were separate beings

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

A day or 2 ago, I was driving home listening to mr. bible answer man H.H. on the radio. He was making the point of how it was actually God the Father that crucified God the Son, (not so much the jews that put him on the cross, or the romans that drove the nails...)

I dont recall him ever referring to Jesus as the Son of God during that broadcast, but always God the Son.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

"The Bible says that in the beginning there was only God. He has always been. God has no beginning and no ending. There were no sun, no stars, no planets, no Earth --and no people.There was just God But He was not alone, because God is really three persons --God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three together are God."
I Believe in Jesus
Leading Your Child to Christ
by John MacArthur copyright 1999

The way that Dr. MacArthur says that --that God was "not alone, because God is really three persons" sounds almost tri-theistic, doesn't it?

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Me, myself and I?

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Absolutely. (Again, I'm not bashing him, he's one of my favorite preachers and authors)

But language and terminology like that would be a HUGE stumbling block to me if I were a Jew considering Christianity. I honestly do not think thats how Paul or Peter or any early Jewish person viewed the godhead.

I think it is the product of gentile philosphy and ignorance. I truly (without any arrogance intended) believe that the oneness doctrine maintains a much more primitive and biblical idea of God.

I'm also honest enough to say, no one has God and the incarnation figured out to a science, and I don't believe you have to be a theologian or Christalogian (aka Godhead Ninja) to be saved. I believe you can be saved with bad doctrine, so long as you live a truly repented life of faith in the Jesus Christ, trusting in his atoning death for sin and subsequent ressurection.

But I get really sick and tired and beaten down with this trinitarian drivel that isn't found in scripture. This kind of stuff isn't scriptural based, its seminary based. If the Bible wasn't so adament about there only being one God, some of these folks would have absolutely no problem saying there were "three gods" though they deny. Didn't Flavius Justin (Martyr) use the language "two gods" when referring to the Father and the Logos?

Anyway, I know that not all trinitarians believe the trinity the same way, some have a very oneness view of God, while using very trinitarian terminology. Also some oneness people have some wacky ideas too, so thats a sword that cuts both ways.

My point in this thread was that even the most respected trinitarian ministers definetely use language that validates some of the claims which oneness people have laid to their charge, and they have cried "foul!" all the while they speak of a supposed (one) God as a "council" and "NOT alone".

I guess if you have enough of a majority you can say anything. Kind of like wal mart saying they have the lowest prices over and over, when in fact they don't. (had to throw that reference in from my secular point of view)

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

John is a died and true reformed hyper Calvanist. His theology is mixed up IMO and he does not understand God's love. Trinitarians do not believe in 3 gods, however John is a legalist at heart which far surpasses any damage trinitarianism would ever do.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

MacArthur is a legalist?

I think you are out of your mind.

Then again, some would say Paul Washer is a legalist too.


Neither one of these guys are legalistic in the sermons I have heard them preach.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Can you qualify this statement? Id like evidence that a hypercalvanist is a legalist...isn't that an oxymoron?

He's a hyper Calvanist yet John is a legalist?

What does either have to do with his view of the Trinity?

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

No no. Mac is a hyper Calvanist...no wait...he's a legalist...no wait....oh wait...he's a trinitarian...no he must not be a Trinitarian because John is a legalistic hyper Calvanist????? :ursofunny

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I know it is a typo and we all make them, but that is cool little word. Trinitarina. lol

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

You made a typo yourself...insert "a" between is and cool..lol:bliss

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Yes, I did. :lol

I thought about a Trinitarina being a female trinitarian.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Isn't a Trinitarina an Italian lady who believes in the trinity?

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I normally don't comment much nowadays, but this is slander. MacArthur is NOT a hyper-Calvinist. A Calvinist, yes....But a hyper-Calvinist, absolutely not.

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.
(Cited from this link: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm )

None of these definitions describe MacArthur even remotely.

And what do you mean by "legalist"?

***Edit: I didn't even realize until just now that the article cited above was written by Phil Johnson, director of Grace to You, John Mac's teaching ministry. Johnson is obviously against hyper-Calvinism. ***

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

:lol Yes, Italian or Spanish, anyway.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

:)

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Macarthurs view is that of tri theism. Three Gods. He and the others try not to make it so. Yet they cant help it. Its the nature of the doctrine. If they were Oneness they would not be attacking us.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Not interested in getting into a debate, but suffice to say this; the denial of free will is legalism.

The doctrines of total depravity, irresistible grace and predestination deny one has any part in their salvific process, but rather God's justice rules, rather than his love. God to them is not "all" loving, but only to those whom he chooses to love. The scripture they use is "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated"...which if u study this objectively, God's talking about the nation of Edomites which did much harm to Israel and also that word hate means "love less" in the Hebrew idiom.

God is not so sovereign that he violates his own nature. He is all loving. He died for all...

When defining the gospel, John believes in limited atonement. That Christ's death was not for "all" but only the elect. This doctrine denies grace for all, but rather only to the elect and since no one knows who they are, we are to preach the gospel and the elect will respond. Spurgeon said that if the elect had a big "E" on their backs, we would know who they are and wouldn't need to preach.

He also believes in the perseverance of the saints which does not truly guarantee salvation until death and then one cannot be sure you are part of the elect. Many puritan calvanists died fearful of their salvation not knowing if they were part of the elect.
If one studies the roots of calvanism, you will understand my statement concerning legalism. Love and relationship are non-existent. Fear is the root.

Furthermore, Calvan himself did not espouse some of the modern hyper doctrines which are re surging in today's modern reformed churches. I consider myself reformed, but not so much I deny men must repent and believe to be saved.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

the denial of free will is legalism. bondage at its best. We are God's children, not slaves who work without thought or reward. The kingdom of heaven is made up of volunteers who love the Lord irregardless of merit.

btw, doesn't have anything to do with the trinity...lol

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Staysharp,

I understand your point of view now.

How do you interpret the scriptures that point to GOD hardening Pharoah's heart?

How do you interpret the scriptures that clearly state that GOD knows who are His?

How do you interpret the scripture that no one can come unto the Father unless the Spirit draws them?

If we are a chosen generation and a royal priesthood, who chose us and who has annointed us? Was there a time that GOD did not know that we would be chosen and anointed?


From what I have heard from MacArthur, there is not any fear mongering in his sermons. There are clear declarations to depart form sin. He presents scriptural concepts for living in a way that is applicable today.


John MacArthur is no more POLYTHEISTIC than we are UNITARIAN.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

HIJACK ALERT!!!!! :ursofunny

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I promise that is not my intent-- it never is. :chat

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

This sounds like a Calvanist with ADHD....:bliss:woot:rooting:dancing:shockamoo:bang head

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Heres a bump of the original post of this thread minus the calvinist disclaimer. Good grief. :blah :pullhair :D

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Rule of thumb.....

Trinitarians believe in three Gods, oneness believe in two Jesus'.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

No, Oneness believes in one Jesus. One person not two

Rule of thumb addendum...seekerman believes in 2 gods, one is God and the other is like him but not the original

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

the scripture tells us why; Romans 9:7 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

No doubt; God uses who he chooses and with regard to His call to satisfy His divine purpose, yes he calls whom he chooses. No debate there. The problem is salvation, not one of a specific task for a specific reason.

Jesus said..."if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"...Calvary is the voice of God calling every human being back to God.

The generation of the Apostles was chosen for the specific task of delivering the message of Christ and saving the Jewish people before the destruction of Jerusalem. This generation shall not pass away...etc. Save yourself from this untoward generation...this was Peter's plea to those who murdered Christ.

Understand I am not saying McArthur isn't a man of God, etc. I am saying some of the doctrines he espouses IMO are unbiblical and damaging to love.

Truth is you can preach all you want to about sin, but until someone falls in love with Christ and his body, the selfishness will continue. The antidote for sin is God's love exampled by Christ. God's Agape love places others above yourself...loving God and others more than you love yourself; the first and greatest of all commands...one will rarely sin against others when he places them first; by loving them according to God's definition of love...1 Cor 13.

Evil is simply the absence of God's love.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Even still, God has given us free will. Does He not know the end from the beginning-- those who will use their free will to succesfully resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit?

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

yup, that's called rebellion...the nation of Israel repeatedly resisted the drawing of God. a true dyed in the wool Calvanist doesn't embrace free will, but rather "irresistible grace" which is a fancy word for "god will get u if he really wants to"...

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

This is really a different topic than the opener... but, Hey! Who cares, right?

staysharp, if God really "wanted to get you" - do you think you would be able to resist?

He is God, after all. He does do "all things after the counsel of His will." If He "wants" you - you're gonna be His.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

And your shadow.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

No,its a trinitarian ballerina who dances and glides all over the .................

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Perhaps Pel. The message was on Ephesians 1, however, with the context he used, I tend to think He MEANT "council", though I'd have to listen to it again, and I'm not in the mood at the moment.

One reason that I lean towards "council" is MacArthur is believes in a VERY defined godhead of persons. He has made statements and written things that I am just amazed by. I have been reading his book on Romans ch. 1-8 (540 pages) and he has made several statements along the same tritheistic lines.

I'm not posting this in ill will or anti Macarthur. I like his stuff enough to use in my sig line.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

Pel, I listened to it again. There is no doubt he says "council" in fact he says it plural "councils"

"How does church growth theory fit into that?
Soverign election has already been determined, it has determined who will be saved, and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councilS of the trinity before time began."

gty.org sermon #gty114 @ the 1:04:00-1:03:00 mark

I guess you can quit ripping me over my reaction now.

Re: John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?
 

If he is teaching from Ephesians 1, then I would lean very heavily on the idea that he said, "counselS of the Trinity..." Suppose we could ask him.

I'm not trying to defend this particular view, just saying that there is a bit of a difference here in the extremities to which a person might go with their rather inherently tri-theistic terminology. This is a big reason that I personally don't use the word "Persons" to describe the nature of God.

God's nature is complex, particularly in the ways in which we as humans perceive Him; however He is still One.