Did God use evolution to create life
 

Why should christians be so opposed to the idea of God using evolution to create life?

What do you think the scriptures mean by this:

Genesis 1-
20And God said, LET THE WATERS BRING FORTH ABUNDANTLY the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, WHICH THE WATERS BROUGHT FORTH ABUNDANTLY, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


24And God said, LET THE EARTH BRING FORTH THE LIVING CREATURE after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Look at 21 again: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

It says God created every living creature that moveth and it says these animals gave birth to their own kind. Same thing in verse 24.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

What does this mean?

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

what ever it means, it does not sound like evolution

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Not sure what this post is all about.
I believe that God truly wants us to know Him and believe Him. If He used evolution to create life, I believe the bible would clearly say so. Why would christians want to set aside what the bible says for the concept of evolution?

One thing I'd add to my prior post; in looking at how God made one man out of the dirt and one woman out of that man's side and then told them to be fruitful and multiply, I'm thinking that God also made a single male and single female of each animal species, and entrusted to them the task of abundantly bringing forth their own species to populate the earth and it's vast oceans.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

That same verse goes against evolution:

24And God said, LET THE EARTH BRING FORTH THE LIVING CREATURE after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

God made everything to reproduce after it's own kind, meaning that apple seeds will produce apple trees, ect. and humans will produce humans, animals will produce animals, ect.

Evolution would have you believe that apes could produce something not after it's own kind that evolved into humans.

Evolution also would indicate that God was not capable of creating things good and perfect from the start, that they had to evolve to improve on the original creation.

God is all powerful, He spoke the billions and billions of stars into existance !

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

God appearently hasn't been on AFF very much lately, theres alot of doubters here who disbelieve He is able to do what His Word says He did. Creation is among those things that some HAVE appearently thought too hard for God. As though it was impossible for creation as we know it to come about except through millions (if not billions) of years.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Mr. Spiritual Badejo, it has nothing to do with God's ability and everything to do with God's methodology. Have you considered that God is powerful enough to have use evolutionary methodology to create our existence?

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Indeed, Dearest Mr. Smith, however His Word specifically and plainly says he did it in 6 days.

EXODUS 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Just sayin'.....:bliss

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Surely you're sharp enough to consider the figurative nature of the word, "Day" and the considerable evidence that the word represents an "Age."

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Where's the "figurative" even hinted in ANY scripture related to creation in the Bible? Please quote it so that I can consider it.

Everytime creation is the topic the days are presented as being literal days, not ages of untold millions of years.

The same school of thought denies the legitimacy of Noah and the Ark, making it to be a fairy tale. Once you start whittling down what God is able to do, there is ALOT of Bible to whittle down.

Noah and the Ark-just figurative. Probably wasn't even a man named Noah.

Sodom and Ghommorah? just figurative, God just wants people to be nice....you know, the sin wasn't "really" homosexuality, but unhospitality

Lot's Wife... just figurative

The Red Sea Crossing....not real either

Manna from heaven....have YOU ever seen manna?

Virgin birth......impossible

Ressurection......just figurative

Eternal life.......

on and on it goes.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Evolution would have you believe that man evolved from apes, but the Bible clearly says that each species produces after it OWN kind, and not fish evolving into apes and apes evolving into man.

There can be genetic changes within a species like if you breed two different kinds of dogs, but not one species producing something not after it own kind as a completely different species.

Here are some related links I found online:

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

http://www.sixdaycreation.com/

http://www.icr.org/

http://www.creationism.org/

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

In summing up the creation account that you have cited from Genesis 1, as part of the segue to an alternate account in Chapter 2, the Author of Genesis says in Genesis 2:4:

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens..."

We haven't even moved more than just a few verses beyond the passage you cited and already the Bible itself contradicts your theory.

We've covered this so many times it's almost ad naseum. Just as you were wrong to have worked yourself up into a "vomiting" mode because you misheard John MacArthur on the matter of "God's counsel" (and not "council") - so you have also decided to become a firebrand for another issue that you really have never studied out.

Stay cool, Bro. I'm here to help!

Was there "really" a "rich man" and a "beggar named Lazarus" in Luke 16? The "rich man" character appears frequently in a number of parables in this chapter and even the broader context of Jesus' teachings at the feast in the home of the pharisee.

You blithely accept the idea that there was "really" no "rich man." And, the Lazarus we know from the Gospel of John was hardly a "beggar" since he owned a house and property. (In fact, many commentators have posited that our Lord's unnamed host in Luke 14:1 - Luke 17:10, may have been the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead in John 11). Thus Jesus may have deliberately introduced the name of his host into the parable as He disputed with the other pharisees present - but that's a different topic.

The point here is that parables contain details that are REAL, though the "story" itself is not intended to be understood as "history."

You would have to concede that homosexual gang rape is an "inhospitable" act, wouldn't you? The "hospitality" that the rulers of Sodom failed to show the visitors (angels) wasn't that they didn't leave a mint on their pillows. That's the point the hand wringing liberals leave out. By "hospitality" in the ancient setting, they were supposed to protect the sojourners from violence, robbery and crime. The "men of Sodom" were guilty of even baser crimes.

And, there is geological and archeological evidence that "cities" in the ancient pattern existed in the area that is now covered by the Dead Sea. With the Dead Sea shrinking at a rather fast pace, more discoveries will certainly turn up.

But the point is, we have evidence as to a "literal" judgment befalling communities in that area. We have no evidence that all of the continents were covered by a flood of water up to 5 miles deep just 4,000 years ago. And, why didn't anyone match up the genealogies like Bishop Ussher did until he performed the feat in 1640? Why didn't the mass of Christendom already have a "date" and "age" for the world long ago? You Young Earth literalism is actually a novelty as ideas go.

No, "on and on" YOU go. And by the fumbling manner that you handled Genesis 1 & 2, I'd have to say that you probably don't speak for many people who have actually studied this matter.

No offense intended. But you should limit your "firebrand" comments for the issues that you're a bit more familiar with.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Thanks Pel. I read his response to what I said and got brain-fried at that stubbornness and willful ignorance. I'm not even going to respond now that you trumped anything I could say by about two or three hemispheres.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Mr. Badejo, seriously, and I mean totally seriously, there is an opportunity here for you to consume valuable information and learn something. Just like your grace journey, there is another journey available and you can travel it if you really, really want to consume truth. It's up to you. Take what Pelathais is saying and consume it with a desire for truth. There's a college education in logistics, reason, and TRUTH from a guy like him, if you're willing to admit that you just might NOT know everything. Come on, listen to what he has to say.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

And Pel, we have already hashed out the difference between a Parable such as the rich man and Lazarus, and a literal historical event, such as the Flood. Nevertheless, you have appointed yourself the authority on all things figurative. ;)

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

I ALWAYS listen to what people have to say. Because I disagree doesn't mean I don't listen or study those things out myself. I like Pel, but its well documented we are completely at odds on this issue.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

No, BroGary. "Evolution would have you believe" that man and apes share a common ancestor. Have you ever bothered to study the issue?

You said earlier:

"the Bible clearly says that each species produces after it OWN kind"

... But now you say that there are "different kinds" of specimens found within a single "species." Which is it?

Those clowns were refuted long ago on this forum.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

You shouldn't be. Pel is right.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

No, I recognize the Bible's authority in this area and I am afraid to mess with that. Just take the Word for what it says. Don't try and make it say the opposite of what some atheist is saying and then call yourself an "apologist" or "defender of the Bible."

That's the pattern in which so many heresies and wacko stuff arises. Ussher ran into that problem during the English Enlightenment and made a fool of himself.

And besides, we obviously haven't "hashed out" the issue if you're still struggling with it.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Jason's cool. But I think he could really be something special if he set aside this "weight." :thumbsup

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Non-humans can only produce non-humans, and not non-humans evolving into humans.

You can have different breeds of dogs, but that is not the same as different species.

They may have been refuted "in your mind", but I do not believe they were truely refuted.

Evolution was fabricated as part of a humanist effort to turn people away from the God of the Bible.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

http://www.sixdaycreation.com/

http://www.icr.org/

http://www.creationism.org/

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

I totally agree. He's a sharp guy and willing to stand for something. But he's making progress.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

When God said

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I take it you do not understand evolution. You do seem to understand speciation. But that creates no new structures. Evolution has said that it is by reason of mutations that we have change over time. Of course out of 800,000 mutations, 1 is beneficial. The rest are detrimental and out of those most are fatal.
No one can show a way in which a 3 chamber heart can in a single step scoot the pulmonary artery to the aorta without killing the animal. But they say 4 chambered hearts came from 3 chambered hearts.
I can from memory give dozens of impossiblilties in evolution. The Darwinists do not have the fossils to prove what they claim.
Evolutionists argue life came from non life.
It has never been observed.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Amen. If God was either passive or outside creation, His authority is limited or non existent.

But that brings up the non telological arguments.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.


I know the folks that take biology clases get stumped when they say millions of years and can't explain how plants were created the day before sunshine for photosynthesis.
How did these plants live for millions of years without heat and sunlight?

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Evolution was an observed process that was universally held by the educated masses in the West long before Charles Darwin came on the scene. It was C. Darwin's grandfather, Erasmus Darwin who help to organize the discussion and is generally credited with coining the term "evolution." There was obviously a long discussion already in the works that was wanting the minting of the term.

You seem to err on a couple of other points as well. "Humanism" during the Renaissance was simply a field of study where the subject of study was human beings. "Classical humanism" was and still is a branch of university study that was developed by Christians and for Christians.

That more recent groups of "neo-humanists" have turned toward atheistic and entirely materialistic studies shouldn't cause us to trash the term "humanist.' You wouldn't even have you King James Bible if it weren't for the long and hard labors of the humanist Desiderius Erasmus, for whom Erasmus Darwin was named.

You said different "kinds" of dogs earlier, after defining just what you thought a "kind" was according to your overly literalistic reading of Genesis 1. Now, you offer the term "breeds."

Could it be that you were actually on the path toward truth all along? What happens when a particular breed of dog is so "different" from other breeds that it can no longer mate with those other breeds? This is an event called "speciation."

One example of an observed instance of speciation would be the famous case of the mule. Horses and donkeys evolved from a common ancestor. Due to their geographic isolation from one another their genes "drifted" apart as well. In time, humans corralled both donkeys and horses and tried to hybridize them. The result was the infertile mule.

If the donkeys and horses had been kept isolated from one another for an even longer period of time, they would not be able to breed with each other at all.

Did God create both donkeys and horses? Two separate species? If so, what's a mule? An "abomination? But then, why do these two separate species (horses and donkeys) produce any kind of offspring at all?

It's like we're observing the "in between" of a complex process. You're "fixed species" model simply doesn't provide any answers here.

Christian evolutionary scientists: http://www.asa3online.org/home/

... which is somewhat redundant. If you don't understand and support evolutionary theory then you're really not a "scientist" at all.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

The Roman Catholic Church had never formally condemned the theory of evolution. However, in 1950, Pope Pius XII issued a papal encyclical letter Humani Generis which discouraged belief in evolution because it played into the hands of materialists and Atheists. Since approximately that time, the Church taught that the Genesis creation story should not be interpreted literally, but symbolically.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

If you're the same "coadie" then I should probably put you on "ignore" as this topic was the cause of your most recent "vacation."

I wish you no ill will and offer you the consideration that everything is "water under the bridge."

FWIW - my nephew was born earlier this month with a three chamber heart. We are waiting for him to put on a few more pounds before they correct the condition surgically. I'm told that the surgical procedure will be sort of like a "one step" type of operation.

Still, how was he born like this? Both of his parents have "typical" four chambered hearts like most mammals. Wouldn't they be expected to "reproduce after their own kind?"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747104/
http://www.biologynews.net/archives/...le_hearts.html

Turns out, if you look at the reptiles you will see the development of the heart from the three chambered amphibian type of heart into the mammalian four chamber heart.

We talked about this before... funny, I can't find that thread. Anyhoo...

When a specific enzyme is inhibited during fetal development a human being can actually end up with an "amphibian" three chambered heart. The "one step process" that coadie seeks is the removal of any factors that interfere with the expression of this enzyme.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Since 1950? Really? Ever read St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD). What about Origen? He was really big on the "symbolic" side of things (185 -254 AD).

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Every time the word "day"is used in the Old Testament and modified by an ordinal, it means 24 hour day.


God is not flakey with words.
God didn't define 6 days here differently that the definition of the 7th day.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Same writer
Same bible
Same book of the bible
Same God says:

10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

If an honest godly person interprets scripture correctly, under what basis does the duration of seven days change between Genesis chapter 2 and Genesis chapter 7?

Using Darwinism to interpret scripture was not available to the OT prophets and writers.
These same folowers of Darwin say the 6 days referred to in the 10 suggestions are different days than the 7 th day which is the sabbath day.

Long-agers generally teach that Genesis 1 means something other than what it says, such as that it is theological poetry, or an allegory involving metaphorical people.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Well, "literally" there was already "light." That's all a plant needs in that regard. And with regard to "heat" - there would have been way too much for anything to be alive if that "light" God is described as creating on the "first day" is to be understood literally.

Here's a stumper for you though:

Genesis 1:25-27, says that humans were created after the animals. It also clearly states that both the man and the woman were created simultaneously.

Yet, Genesis 2:18-22, very clearly states that a human being was created first, then the animals and finally the woman.

So, literally, which is it?

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Acts 17:26And(G) he made from one man every nation of mankind to live(H) on all the face of the earth,(I) having determined allotted periods and(J) the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Hebrews 4:4 (King James Version)

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Of course the Darwinist interpretation denies this verse:

5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

DING! DING! DING! coadie and I agree! coadie and I agree!

:bliss

However, we still need tools to help us to understand those words. For example:

Matthew 27:9-10

"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me."

Yet, as every student of the Old Testament knows, these are NOT the words of "Jeremy the prophet" (Jeremiah) but the words of Zechariah the prophet who lived almost 100 years later.

So, how can we demand that Genesis 1 - 11, be held to one standard of absolute wooden literalism while we waffle a bit on the historical account of our Lord's own crucifixion?

Do we demand that these be the words of Jeremiah even though they are clearly the words of Zechariah? (See Zechariah 11:12-13).

Or should we just abandon the faith and live like the men of Sodom (whether literally or figuratively, we'll let you choose)?

How about this? How about if we just accept the words of the Bible the same way that we accept the natural speech of those around us? This is NOT to say that the Bible isn't inspired. However, this approach does recognize the Bible as being given to us in human speech and not some "magical formula" that only a magi could read.

When someone in the Bible makes a sweeping generalization or an expansive reference like Matthew does here we should handle it in the same manner that we understand other human speech. When a later writer makes a generalization and quotes the words of Genesis 1, we should understand it the same way we understand Jesus' command to "go and do likewise" - - Likewise what? Likewise a story that Jesus had just made up (Luke 10:30-37).

The absence of "literalism" doesn't negate the importance of the command.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

There is no "Darwinist" interpretation of the Bible. There are sound interpretations and there are unsound interpretations of the Bible.

A "sound interpretation" takes into account the fact that both the Bible's message is real and the world around us is real. The Bible's message is to impact the lives of people in this real world.

Creating a "just pretend" fantasy world will not impact people in the real world.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

You are, however, unable to correctly use commas. But yeah, go ahead with your memorized dozens of impossibilities. I'll wait.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

Yeah really. coadie, help your readers a bit. I missed some important things that you said here.

This is not a contest. This is a discussion. If you need time to type it out - take the time. I'm not going to boast about a "victory" just because you didn't respond within 5 minutes of my last post.

And, we did the "quote from memory thing" remember? None of your examples were valid and you failed to answer what I posted about showing several clear examples of biological evolution.

For example... what about this "four chambered heart" thing that you just brought up again? You said that there was "no way" that it could have evolved from "simpler" hearts like the amphibians. Right now my nephew is being held up in prayer in several Apostolic churches because he has essentially a three chambered heart.

The cause of this birth defect is fairly well know and it involves the suppression and expression of various enzymes as described in the links I gave you. By "the roll of the dice" this little guy suffers from something that could have afflicted any one of the rest of us. It was random chance involving the expression of a gene during fetal development.

Please respond to that. Take your time. Take a few days, it's no big deal. We also covet your prayers.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

God doesn't play word games son!

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

You made up the "simultaneously" part.

that is an attempt for dishonesty.

When people practice darwinistic manipulation of Genesis 1 and two, they insert their own words and meanings.

Question for Pelthais.

Give us the scripture and verse that in your Darwinist view is the first verse that is litterally true as written with no need for "interpretation"
When people fall under the spell of a non Christian biology class, they jump on the Darwinist band wagon.

There is no "stumper" for people that do flow charts.
Again, there is for people that castigate God's scriptures and play word games. They think they have a "gotcha"

You made another dishonest claim in reference to heat. God doesn't follow your presuppositions. You are not all knowing and in your imagination think there would have been too much heat.




The agenda for darwinists to pound on the innerancy of the Word in the bible from Genesis 1:1 and onward to to take away from the authority of God.


And it was so

When a castigator of scripture attacks the authenticity of the word in Genesis, one of the code words is the use the word "literal" a lot. It is often associated with a bogus word definition.

and it was so.

Every thing they twist and change they are saying it was NOT so. They claim to know better hiow it really was.

Re: Did God use evolution to create life
 

God smacks down Job.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Evolutionism is Not science. Sciences is "observable"

The crackpot religion of Darwinsim didn't observe anything in creation but pounce on the bible to twist it to how they think it should make sense to support their dogma./

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

When the castigators come out, the say you can't take this litterally and it surely was NOT so.