Apostolic Unity
 

What prevents the apostolic church from experiencing the type of unity Jesus desires (Jn 17)?

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

By "apostolic church" I'm assuming you mean the religious movement which began in 1913 and evolved into the various oneness Pentecostal organizations and churches we have today.

The problem with 'apostolic church' unity is the same problem that caused the unity issues with the Methodists, Baptist and others. The bible is a book that has contradictions, inconsistencies and error and folks try to be in unity by following the flawed book instead of simply living a life based upon the simple view that God is love.

Folks want unity from a flawed rulebook where the rules are changing from epoch to epoch. Can't happen.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

lots of things...politics in general....

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

If all apostolics were to merge into one big group,
how could they ever decide which one person would be the
Presiding Bishop/General Superintendent/Chairman/CEO/Pope/Supreme Potentate/Grand Wizard/etc.???

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Seekerguy,
This question is directed to those that consider themselves apostolic.
You did not answer my question but instead injected your opinion about the Bible. Since by your post it appears you don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God then I believe you have disqualified yourself from this discussion.
Sorry you feel that way about the book. Is the Koran more reliable? What about Vishnu? What do you use (other than an emotional opinion) to PROVE that "your god is Jesus' god"? What other resource do you have (in writing) that directs you to a personal relationship and accountability to a Holy God? The Bible is the most reliable resource for information about God the Creator and Savior than anything else you may ever read.
My question again, to apostolics is: What do we DO to encourage Apostolic Unity among ministry and laity?

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

We have a winner!

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

The answer is simple. The Apostolic Church is what keeps the Apostolic Church from experiencing this type of unity. Since we are ran by men nothing is going to be perfect.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Why do we have various Apostolic Pentecostal organizations?
There are several reasons.

There have been divisions among OP's based on race.

There have been divisions among OP's based on who can be divorced and remarried and still be a minister.

There have been divisions among OP's on the baptismal formula such as "Lord Jesus" or "Lord Jesus Christ" or "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus" or "Yeshua"

There have been divisions among OP's based on "standards" recently the WWPF set up a separate organization because the UPC allowed TV. In 1992 some left and formed another organization because of the Affirmation Statement.

There have been divisions among OP's based on who got certain offices and who didn't. I'm not sure but I think a big factor in the formation of the AMF in the 1960's was when M.B. did not get to be Gen. Supt. in 1968. I may be misinformed on this.

Also, there have been churches which split and one group would stay with the organization and the other group would become part of another organization so that would mean the rift between the organizations would widen.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Ok.

I disagree, I did answer. The bible is one of the major reasons there's conflict in the so-called 'apostolic' movement. Some 'apostolics' teach from the bible it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair, other 'apostolics' teach that it's ok using the same bible. Some 'apostolics' will say the bible teaches that TV is a sin, other 'apostolics' teach that TV isn't a sin.

There's Steve Winter 'apostolics', UPC 'apostolics' and other 'apostolics' all teaching conflicting teachings based on the same bible.

Why would that disqualify me?

I don't know much about the Koran, but I doubt it would be more reliable. Likewise Vishnu.

Oh, I use the bible for that.

There are many spiritual writings that directs one to a personal relationship and accountibility to a Holy God. I suspect you're going to want to know what others, so I'll save a step and give you one. The Gospel of Thomas.

Now we'll argue about why the bible contains the books that it does.

You don't know everything that I've ever read.

Are you speaking of Steve Winter 'apostolics', UPC 'apostolics' or one of the other 'apostolic' sects out there? What bible do they use to come to such conflicting beliefs?

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

The Bible only can have flaws when it is viewed with flawed eyes, which we all have.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

:thumbsup

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

We are very human and carnal. Look at what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 quoted from the KJV below:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Their divisions showed that they were carnal, or fleshly, or governed by their carnal/fleshly/sinful natures.

Here is a Jim Ellis paraphrase of that passage:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of UPC; and another, I am of PAW or AMF or CoJC or WWPF or GNC or GIB; are ye not carnal?

My opinion on the subject.
I am ordained in a Jesus Name Apostolic organization and also ordained in a local trinity church. In my opinion, all who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior have been placed into the One Church--the Body of Christ-- by the Holy Spirit and are my brothers and sisters. In my opinion, their status in the Body of Christ or Family of God has nothing to do with water or Spirit baptism, what they believe about the godhead, or how they dress.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

My friend I hope you are right for all sakes involved but I do not see that in the Bible. I only see one faith, one Lord, and one baptism.

I don't see a HG baptism without tongues, I don't see anyone ever baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost using those words. I don't see a believe of a co existent persons Godhead or do I see a church that does not strive for outward and inward holiness both in word and in deed.

I see a church that fails often but works in the miraculous. I see a church who believe in Christ Jesus as the son of God. I see a church who believe in ONE God and calls him Father. I see a church who practices holiness and loves one another. I see a church who only baptizes in the name of Jesus and that it was commmanded, not an option. I see a church who encouraged all to seek for the baptism of the HG that do believe and that tongues came as a sign to them. I believe it would behoove us to follow that church.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

I'll give you an example of Apostolic unity that happened a couple of weeks ago.

I met a young man at an Apostolic Church which is about an hour and a half away from where I live. I found out a few days later that he was going to an area hospital for chemo and radiation treatments. I found out that someone was going to meet him there and have lunch with him and pray for him. I invited myself to join them and they agreed.

I drove 3 hours to the hospital. The young man (age 27) who was going there for treatment goes to a UPC church but has a license with an independent organization. The other young man (age 22) goes to a UPC Church. The two young men drove about an hour to get there. Another man, age 62 is a Bishop in an organization called The Apostolic Church of the Living God. I think he drove a couple of hours to get there. All 4 of us met and had lunch together. Then we went to the Chapel and talked, fellowshipped, and prayed for each other. I think this is a good example of Apostolic unity.

A week later I drove an hour and a half to speak at an Apostolic Church. The pastor and I belong to the same OP organization and he knows how I believe but he allowed me to speak.

Last night I spoke to the Bishop (mentioned above) and told him to let me know when he is going to be at a certain church (independent OP) preaching and I will try to get there. This church is between where he lives and where I live and is about 2 hours away for each of us coming from opposite directions.

I have a list of several ministers and ministries that I pray for on a regular basis and I support a couple of them financially. The people on them are pretty diverse, some are trinity and some are oneness. I obviously do not believe everything each of them believes but I consider them to be servants of the Lord and brothers and sisters in Jesus.

I think these are a few examples of unity.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

We need to find a place of agreement to begin a discussion. Do you believe the scriptural canon of 66 books that consist of today's Bible is the infallible word of God?

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Not unless God is a baby killing, confused, inconsistent God. So, no, I don't believe the scriptural canon of 66 books that make up the protestant bible is infallible.....nor inerrant.

It's a collection of books, not God.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

maybe He didn't pray hard enough

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Prayer for unity

1. We speak the same thing in our church and there is no division among us, but we are perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment. 1 Corth. 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

2. Thank You, God, You have helped us to live with patience and harmony with each other with Christ-like attitudes, so we praise You with one voice, giving You glory. We now receive each other warmly as Christ received us, so You are glorified. Romans 15:5-7 KJV Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like-minded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

3. Because we refresh ourselves in Your presence, Lord, we have such joy and fellowship with each other and are able to stay free of sin. 1 John 1:7 TLB But if we are living in the light of God's presence, just as Christ does, then we have wonderful fellowship and joy with each other, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from every sin.

4. Thank You, Jesus, that You are our way of peace. You have broken down the enemy's wall that separated us. You have made all of us who opposed each other in our church parts of You, and in that way, we have become one. Ephes 2:14 AMP For he himself is our peace - our bond of unity and harmony. He has made us both one (body) and broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us, by abolishing in his own (crucified) flesh the enmity (caused by) the law with its decrees and ordinances - which He annulled: that he from the two might create in Himself one new quality of humanity out of the two - so making peace.

5. We are encouraged in heart and united in love in our church, so that we now have the full riches of complete understanding, so that we know the mystery of God, namely You, Jesus. Col. 2:2 NIV My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ.

6. We now keep the unity of the spirit in a bond of peace. Ephes. 4:3 KJV Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

7. We are like one happy family, full of sympathy toward each other, loving one another with tender hearts and humble minds. 1 Peter 3:8 TLB And now this word to all of you: You should be like one big happy family, full of sympathy toward each other, loving one another with tender hearts and humble minds.

8. We are brothers in You, Lord, sharing the same Spirit. Our hearts are tender and sympathetic to each other. We love each other, agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, working together with one heart and mind and purpose. Philip. 2:1b The Book Does it mean anything to you that we are brothers in the Lord sharing the same Spirit? Are your hearts tender and sympathetic at all? Then make me truly happy by loving each other and agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, working together with one heart and mind and purpose.

9. Thank You, Jesus, we are all one as You and the Father are one. People see this and they believe that You, God, sent Jesus. John 17:21 KJV That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

10. We have risen and are shining. Our light, which is You, Jesus, has come and Your glory has risen upon us. Isaiah 60:1 KJV Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

11. Thank You that You have made our love to grow and overflow to each other and to all men. 1 Thes. 3:12 KJV And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you.

12. It is good and pleasant that we now dwell in unity! Because of our unity, You have commanded a blessing on us, even life forever more. Psalm 133:1,3b KJV Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

13. I welcome fellow believers who don’t see things the way I do, being strong on opinions but weak in faith. I treat them gently. Romans 14:1 MES Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them when they do or say something you don’t agree with—even when it seems they are strong in opinions and weak in the faith department. Remember they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently.

14. We believers in our church now agree with one heart and one mind. Acts 4:32a NIV All the believers were one in heart and mind.

15. Lord, You have given us one heart and mind to do Your commandments. 2 Chron. 30:12 KJV In Judah the hand of the Lord was to give them one heart to do the commandments of the king and of the princes, by the word of the Lord.

16. The Glory which God gave You, Jesus, You have given to us, so we are now one, even as You and the Father are one. John 17:22 KJV And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they be made one even as we are one.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

I have had several good conversations and prayed with a baptist preacher. He believe he will see three figures in heaven and I believe we will see one. He believe the Father Son and HG is the baptismal formula. I believe the apostles understood the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost was Jesus and therefore only people were baptized in the name of Jesus in the NT.
He believes in the HG but not a secondary experience in receiving the spirit after what he called being saved.

I do not believe salvation is complete without the baptism of the HG.

We had several differences but appreciated one another and he is studying Jesus name baptism. So We had unity but yet we also witnessed to one another about the doctrine of God and we appreciate each other's views. I still preach acts 2:38 as salvation plan and he still believes you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ only.

I didn't change my position and praying and that he changes His. He appreciates my position but doesn't agree.

To me we are unified in our belief of the word and Christ but disunified on soteriology and the Godhead.

You can have unity and disunity at the same time.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

In this instance, you cannot use a 'flawed' book that you have said contradicts itself to prove that your belief is right (in this case that Jesus and you serve the same God). The bible is either wholly true or wholly false.

Re: Apostolic Unity
 

Amen to that!