The Backside to Submission
 

We have always heard it said that women must submit to their husbands and everyone to the pastor. Indeed, it was psychologically beat in.

I would like to look at the other side of the coin...the backside, if you will.

In the extreme, if philosophically (in the belief system) women are not equal to their husbands, must always submit, are possibly somehow inferior and people are also not equal to the pastor but must always submit and are possibly somehow spiritually inferior but in reality (real life) women are equal, mustn't always submit and aren't in any way inferior (and people to pastors likewise) then isn't there an awful lot of pressure placed upon husbands and pastors that is unrealistic?

There is always the pressure for people to submit as if that is a good thing. But what if the balance is truly lopsided and not only are women and people in general cheated from running their own lives and cheated from creatively being able to express who they are in what they do but on the flipside pastors and husbands are expected to perform under incredible pressure and always make the right decisions, this makes things ripe for a dysfunctional atmosphere.

I don't have a lot of time to discuss the issue as I am busy now in my advanced Anatomy and Physiology class (it's very intensive) but I would be interested in reading responses.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

And according to the people who are " under their care " Pastors and Husbands never make the right decisions.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

I guess it all is from perspective, and ones idea of submission . A true leader understands that People have talents and are capable of thought also that people are free to choose . That leader give freedom , The ones who are " Lords over the heritage " are not real leaders they are dictators and control is their goal, whether or not they realize it or not . Yes women are to submit according to scripture , but it also says we "all" are to submit one to another in LOVE. Therefore I also submit to my wife and do not do things intentionaly to upset her.

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If a true leader does all this, why does submission even have to be taught? People LIKE this kind of leadership.

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This may become interesting. In Genesis after the fall, the

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

When the man is to love the woman, it places tremendous restrictions on the word "rule"
When a woman first meets a man, many say they look for confidence and leadership. One that can plan and schedule a date. Can make up their mind. Metro sexual wussy males are not leaders and protection. Often males avoid klingy ladies.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

It depends HOW it is taught. I thinks mutual submission should be taught , Love is submission to the one that we love . Right ? I believe this is the Spirit and intent behind what God means in the scripture.

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Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, 13

3 types of luv

Phileo
Agape
Eros

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

If mutual submission should be taught, why is there an emphasis on women submitting to husbands and people submitting to pastors?

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Look at Ephesians 5:22 - 33 along with the wife submitting. The Husband is told how he should act to her be tender and Love her as his own flesh.

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I do not think God had dictator style leadership in mind...

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I don't think Biblical submission is anything like what people have made it in some circles. Submission is NOT:
always looking at the ground and never meeting anyone's eyes
allowing abuse of any kind-verbal, emotional, or physical
never saying anything to contradict or question an "authority"

Submission cannot be beaten into a person, does not mean breaking that person's will, and will never be forced.

Submission is completely voluntary, and can only occur when the one submitting truly trusts and respects, and is loved and respected by, the one being submitted to. Because true submission is voluntary, it does not happen between two people who do not consider themselves equals. If there is inequality, there is no need for submission, only leadership. And if there is equality without mutual respect and love, there is no place for submission, but only dictatorship.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

I do not know, but I do know that we live in a fallen world and that Husbands and Pastors are human. So with that said I believe the way it is taught with a heavy hand is out of fear.

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Yeah, but I never heard much of that. I heard a lot about women submitting and how women were not normally submissive. That it was a woman's nature to usurp authority and she needed to work hard spiritually to not be that way. There was little teaching about how a husband should be tender and loving.

Lots of teaching about how people would go their own way and needed the pastors help. Little about how he should serve the church in love.

Now I will step out on a limb and say I think that is an organization wide problem with a few pastors having it right but most heavy-handed on the submission stuff.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Very true. You cannot have submission without love. If a husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, then he will respect her. She can then voluntarily submit in respect for his giving and sacrifice for her.

Ephesians puts a greater responsibility on the man than the woman. The wife is asked to submit, but the man is asked to do all he can, up to and including giving his life for, his wife. So she gives of herself daily, but he is asked to give all of himself daily.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

I believe you are right.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Amen. This kind of Love makes it SAFE to submit to, not out of fear but mutual respect and love.

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I think Bible submission and some men´s ideas of submission is 2 different things...

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When someone is unsure of their position or role, or is uncomfortable in their environment, there can be a tendency toward heavy-handedness no matter what type of group or what setting. That happens even if the group is all one gender, all one age, all one race, and all have fairly equal standing in the community. Look at almost any set of politicians and that becomes blaringly obvious. And the larger the group, the more likely that there will be a pecking order or a dogfight either evident or brewing.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

The "love" being referred to here by Paul is Agape.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

There is no reference to eros in the NT. It is the luv that is behind gay marriages. Relationships limited to that won't work out.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Can a person have true Phileo or Eros without Agape?

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

If you think about it, it is taught backwards. Not really the way Jesus taught it . Jesus gave us a picture of the way he wanted it when he washed the disciples feet.He became the servant. I know for a fact, that is not taught for leaders across many denominations.I know we do foot washing and most do it out of tradition, but do we understand what He was trying to get across.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Absolutely! Agape love is unconditional and self-sacrificing. Agape love is willful and active. This is what we mean when was say "love is a verb."

Phileo and Eros love are actually what we see most of in the world. It's all about feelings - feelings and emotions that can change like the weather, depending upon circumstance. Agape is nothing like it.

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There is the key point, I think. This kind of leader is SAFE to submit to. He probably doesn't talk about submission much either because most people under him probably do not find it a difficult thing to do.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Agreed! And I'll go on to say that many (if not most) heterosexual marriages and relationships are based on eros as well, and NOT agape. If agape was the basis of all marriages, would we see nearly as many divorces? Would we even use the term "fall in love" if we were truly talking about agape? Eros and Phileo are based on emotion. Agape is not.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

True

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Example:

Young woman gets into the church. Young woman wants nothing more than to please God. She does not understand the church's social norms. She is taught that women are usurpers of authority and, by nature, seducers. This is evident in the way that women cut their hair and wear make-up in the world. Uncut hair is a sign of submission. No make-up is a sign of purity. No pants are also a sign of not usurping maleness. Jewelry is for wanton women wanting to beautify themselves. YW sees neighboring pastor's wife trim some hair just to fluff it a bit and she also wears a wedding ring. YM is taught that the liberals are probably not saved. YM looks around her church and sees a few wedding rings. YM becomes confused and expresses concern. YM is told she should not judge others and that she is usurping the pastor's authority by being concerned. YM is reminded to keep her place and stop usurping authority.

=Confusion. Depression. Oppression.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

unfortunately this is also true. What is the answer ?

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Stop preaching things that were made up by men.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

Shhhhh,not so loud my wife is in the room.

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I agree , but they won't stop. So then what? If we stay in traditional churches we will hear more of the same. I for one don't want to go to just any church. I want to hear truth { I believe oneness is the truth } . I am thankful for both of my Pastors , both are Godly men , Humble . So I am pretty happy where I am . It was not always so , but for now it is good , I have bumped into the judaizers, and such, and Pastors steeped in tradition. In the book of Rev 2:2 says I know thy works and thy patience and that thou canst not bear them that are evil; and thou hast tried them that say they are APOSTLES and are not,and hast found them liars . Harsh words I know, but I believe those that Preach tradition and the doctrines of men are preaching another Gospel. Jesus had words most with those who were religious. ref Matthew 15:3 and Matthew 15:7-9 . Just for the record I do believe in holiness..... but true holiness.

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No offense, but this sounds like hooey to me. I don't believe God expects more out of men than women.

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Well, I left. That is how I solved the problem. I just think it's sad that people are subjected to that kind of stuff in the name of God and when they get confused, and feel oppressed, they are simply told that it is their own fault somehow. Nothing is ever the fault of the preachers. It's always your fault. The thinking really keeps you beat down until one day you hopefully wake up and get angry and take matters into your own hands.

Re: The Backside to Submission
 

:thumbsup