Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Ephesians 4 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Many churches recognize pastors, evangelists, teachers, and of course the select are known as prophets in apostolic ranks. However that is only four. Where is the office of the apostle? Has it ceased? Can anyone be called to that office today? If so, do you know anyone who you would truly consider an apostle?

How many church confuse the office with the 9 spiritual gifts today?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Indeed.

Not only this... but, while we do have evangelists, an evangelist is considered to a be a short term & traveling position and teachers are generally used on an off and on basis as well.

The only steady ministry of these 5 in a church is that of pastor. The rest are gone, temporary or only used occasionally.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Which leads me to question whether a church should deem through the direction of the Holy ghost and through the calling of the life of the saint, an office that the person may fulfill in the local church. This could also go abroad as well.

I have heard of churches deeming evangelists and prophets.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

First, what is the definition of "Apostle"? Maybe that will give us more insight to the apostolic office.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

My definition drawing from what I see in the Bible (and I welcome correction on this) is one who goes about starting and then nurturing & mentoring various works in various places.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Indeed, I have heard that line of thought before. I also believe an apostle is called to set order in local churches, which would fall into nurturing and mentoring you mentioned.

But what do you think, if someone came out today claiming to be an apostle, wouldn't 95% of christendom brand such a false prophet/false apostle...?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

I think most would brand them as such. It would depend a lot on how that "apostle" defined what an apostle is.

Most that would call themselves an apostle tend to have very widely defined powers & authorities in peoples lives. If he felt that he was God's gift to the world... yeah... that won't turn out well.

If he operated with humility and only referred to himself as such because of the work he was doing then I would think he would be more widely received.

That is the thing with the five fold ministries. Too many people view these things as what the ARE. I AM a pastor... I AM an apostle... and this, per their view, demands certain respect etc.

If I do the work of an apostle. Call me an apostle.
If I do the work of a shepherd. Call me a shepherd or a pastor.
Etc

But people takes these things on as labels of who they are rather than definitions of what they do.

Often the way in which people profess their calling has much to do with the level of acceptance they experience.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Yes indeed I believe so. With the above thought would you think we incorrectly name some evangelists or missionaries who may really be filling the office of an apostle?

Note Paul's words

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb


There seems to be a difference between the office of an apostle and the office of the original 13 apostles (counting Paul)

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Where is the five fold ministry?

In my opinion it is alive and well and operating all around us.
We just don't always recognize some of those involved because they do not agree with us on everything doctrinally and in practice.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

I personally think so. However, it should not even matter what we address them as long as they are filling their role scripturally. This brings in the point that D4T mentioned about "people taking these things on as labels of who they are rather than definitions of what they do."

When a pastor gets angry because you called him Brother James instead of Pastor James or Apostle James as the case may be, there is definitely a problem...IMO

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

[QUOTE=TGBTG;955402
...
When a pastor gets angry because you called him Brother James instead of Pastor James or Apostle James as the case may be, there is definitely a problem...IMO[/QUOTE]

yeppers :grampa

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Eph 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

What do you guys think about coming in the Unity of the Faith?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

That happened in 1945 when the UNITED Pentecostal Church was formed.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

:ursofunny:thumbsup

Seriously, Sam, what do you think about Eph 4:13?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

LOL Sam are you bitter against the UPC for some reason?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

One Lord, One faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all. Till there is one church with one Lord.

The remainder of the verse indicates heaven as we cannot attain unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ until we reach there IMO.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

no, I was just making a play on the word "united" in the denomination's name and the word "unity" in Ephesians chapter 4

I was taught in a UPC Bible School back in 1956/1957 that there have been no real apostles or prophets in the church since the first century.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

The Five Fold Ministry
Reference Ephesians 4:1-16

Verses 1-6 speak about the one Church, the Body of Christ
Whether we recognize it as such or not, God only has one Church. It is made up of all those who have been placed (or baptized) into it by the Holy Spirit.

Verses 7-11 list 5 offices which Jesus has placed in His Church.
These offices are: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

Verse 12 gives the purpose of those offices
“for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ”

Verses 13-16 tell us how long those offices will be needed
From the wording it seems to me that those 5 offices will be needed as long as there is a church that is made up of imperfect people.

When I was a new Christian I joined a church which would be called “cessationist.” In other words they believed that gifts of the Spirit were temporary until the books which became our New Testament were written. Part of this belief was that healing, prophecy, speaking in tongues and other gifts ended around the end of the first century. Also, that the offices of apostle and prophet ended at that time and that there could never be any additional apostles other than 11 of the original 12 plus the Apostle Paul.

Shortly after my conversion I discovered that there were things available to us today that were available to the early Church. Things like healing, miracles, and the empowering or baptism of the Holy Spirit were still available. Why would they have ever ceased if we were still in the same church that was established in the New Testament? I remember reading a book by the late Jack Coe where he listed several apostles in the book of Acts. This showed me that the number of apostles listed in the Bible was not limited to 12. I remember that he related a dream that one minister had where he saw a large hand which had two of the fingers bound so they could not be used. The Lord spoke to him that we were binding or limiting God from moving and acting like He wanted to because we refused to acknowledge two of the five offices in the church. These offices that we would not accept were apostles and prophets.

Shortly after this I went to St. Paul, Minnesota to a small Bible School. There we were taught that the offices of apostle and prophet had ceased shortly before the end of the first century. This was an Apostolic/Pentecostal Bible School and they were teaching some of the same cessationist stuff that I had heard in the denominational church which I had left. I realized this teaching could not be true because I had already read about 20 or so people who were called apostles in the New Testament.

Let’s look at these 5 offices and at some of the people in the New Testament who are identified by the titles of these offices.

The first is the office of apostle. I have the following notes about 26 people called "apostle" or "messenger" or "he that is sent" who are named. There are also some who are not named, plus Jesus is called an apostle in the NT. Our word apostle comes from “apostolos” which means a delegate, one sent with full power of attorney to act in the place of another, the sender remaining behind to back up the one sent, a messenger. The word occurs 81 times in the NT. It is translated apostle 78 times, messenger 2 times, and he that is sent 1 time. The original 12 are listed in Matthew 10:1-4 and Luke 6:12-16. The following are listed as apostles in the New Testament:
1 Peter, or Simon, or Kefa
2 Andrew
3 James (brother of John)
4 John (brother of James)
5 Philip
6 Bartholomew or Nathaniel, brother of Philip
7 James, son of Alphaeus or James the less Mark 15:40
8 Judas, or Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddeus, son of James,
9 Matthew or Levi of Alphaeus Mark 2:14; Luke 6:15-16
10 Thomas or Didymus or Twin
11 Simon the Zealot Acts 1:13
12 Judas Iscariot
13 Matthias Acts 1:26 (Paul refers to him as one of the 12 in I Cor 15:5)
14 Saul or Paul Gal. 1:1; 2:7,8, 1 Timothy 2:7
15 Barnabas Acts 11:22; 13:1-4; 14:1,4,14;I Cor 9:5-6
16 Andronicus Rom 16:7
17 Junia or Junias, or Julia Rom 16:7 (only woman called an apostle)
18 Apollos I Cor 4:6-9
19 James the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19 Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 15:7
20 Timothy I Thess 1:1; 2:6
21 Silas or Silvanus I Thess 1:1; 2:6, Acts 15:22
22 Titus 2 Cor. 8:23 (messenger) Acts 19:22
23 Epaphroditus Phil 2:25 (messenger)
24 Erastus Acts 19:22
25 Judas (Barsabas) Acts 15:22
26 Tychicus 2 Tim 4:12
27 Unnamed brothers 2 Cor 8:23
28 Jesus Christ Heb. 3:1

The following are listed as prophets in the New Testament:
Anna (Luke 2:36)
John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)
Agabus (Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10) and unnamed others (Acts 11:27-28)
Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)

Only one person is called an evangelist in the New Testament. That is Philip (reference Acts 21:8)

The word “pastor” is not found in the King James New Testament. The plural form “pastors” is only found in Ephesians 4:11

As far as I can remember right now, only the Apostle Paul is called a teacher (reference 2 Timothy 1:11)

In Acts 13:1 it mentions certain people who are called “prophets and teachers.” These people are Paul, Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, and Manaen. From the wording, I don’t know if all 5 of these were both “prophets and teachers” or if some were just prophets and some were just teachers, or if some fulfilled both offices.

Earlier I had mentioned the dream a man had about the hand of God with 5 fingers and how these 5 fingers represented the 5 offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. I recently came across an article online which also described these offices by comparing them to the fingers on a hand. You may or may not agree with everything in the short article but I think it’s interesting. I have slightly modified the wording of the article but did not modify the intent of it. I believe it was written by a Church of God in Christ minister. I don’t know if it represents the organization and offices of that particular group or not.

First, the thumb. The thumb represent the apostle.

Try holding your hand out and take your thumb and touch the tip of each finger on that hand. The apostle is the only finger that can touch each of the other offices. He reaches them all. He stays in contact with the churches he helps in building and establishes. He incorporates these ministries into that body so each can be efficient. The apostle is the first headship of the church given the right and authority to touch every member of the body of the 5-fold ministry. He is a man "anointed" to go and establish churches, as the Apostle Paul did. The apostle sets up churches and church leaderships in cities, countries and nations. The apostle sets up a church, incorporates the Word of God as the basics of its existence. He establishes helps in establishment of ministry inside the church and sets up a pastor if necessary. He helps the office of evangelism in bringing in the people. The church now established, the apostle moves on and establishes elsewhere. The apostle is a true missionary and does the work.

The second finger is the forefinger. It represents the prophet.

A prophet is one feared in the Old Testament, knowing he was a man of God who brought a word from God and some times it was correction, and such, showing tremendous miracles. The word prophet comes from the word prophetes which means “one who speaks for another.” This pointer finger points us to God and points out the Word of God for us.

The third finger, the middle finger represents the evangelist.

Holding your hand out flat and fingers together, you have a middle finger, the longest finger on your hand. This is the evangelist. This finger usually sticks out farther than the other four. Thus the evangelist reaches out into the community bringing in souls into the kingdom of God. It is an anointing that is within the evangelist that reaches for souls.

The fourth finger on the hand is the ring finger, the covenant finger, and represents the Pastor of the church.

The pastor is married to the church. He is in covenant to the Church that God has placed him over. He provides weekly food for the church table, the Word preached and taught to the sheep.

The pastor labors studying and preparing the Word. He gives fresh food as manna from heaven. He visits the sick and others in the body of the church. He stays daily with the church and assures all is well. He sets offices inside the church, prays and guards over them. He helps keep the sheep from wandering off, and being eaten by wolves. The pastor is the shepherd and covenant man of the church's house.

The fifth finger on the hand, the pinkie finger, is the smallest finger and most time with the hardest job. It represents The teacher. This little finger is the one we use to reach down into our ears. The little finger, the teacher, is anointed to bring the word in a way that one with a hearing ear, can sit down and listen to the teaching until well fed. A dedicated teacher is always studying to be prepared and his light never turns out. It’’s the anointing in the office of teacher that makes the Word blessed. We need anointed teachers of the Word.

I’ve seen the offices of evangelist, pastor, and teacher compared to the obstetrician, the pediatrician, and the dietitian.

One must pray and ask God to show where one fits, God will show him or her. He is concerned about His ministry and His church working so that all works together properly.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

So, I believe that we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the church today
and
I believe that both men and women can be called to these offices.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

amen and amen!

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

amen...

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

:coffee2

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Sam I really enjoyed the in depth article you wrote. I have also read that about the hand and quite agree with it.

Its sad that ABI would teach cessessionist doctrine. I believe they are alive today! Many may not even know the office they may be called to. I however do believe only the ministry fulfills the office. The gifts of the Spirit however work within the body but the ministry has a special office calling IMO.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

It's my understanding that those fulfilling the ministry of Apostle are those we call Missionaries.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

To a large extent...

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

I’d like to address something. These “ministries” are often thought of as “offices”. But if you look closely… they are “ministries” of the body and for the body. In the first century church Christians didn’t have the concepts we have with “offices”. An Apostle was one that took the Gospel to a previously unreached region. A prophet was one anointed to speak the prophetic Word of the Lord and to deliver the Word of God anointedly. The Evangelist was any brother or sister who shared the Gospel rather it be by traveling church to church or just sharing in the market place. Those called to pastor spiritually mentored the flock, teaching Scripture, and building strong relational bonds. Teachers labored in the Word to teach doctrine. The average gathering was roughly 15 to 30 people in a house. Out of that 15 to 30 people you might have 10 gifted in the ministry of “pastor” and these mentored the flock together. All were called to be evangelists. You might have some feeling called to unreached regions. Two might specialize in doctrine. And three might be gifted in the gift of prophecy. There weren’t “offices” as we might think of them. It appears that “elders” were those who were spiritually mature in each gathering and that they worked together and in harmony, guiding and building up the flock. It was more like community… not a corporation. They called themselves Brother and Sister not as some form of “title”… but because they truly saw the church as a family. That being said, it was guided like a family.

Just had to drop that in here.

God bless.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

The office of the apostle and prophet was clearly outlined in the early church quite well. Philip was labeled cleary as an evangelist. However Pastor and teacher was not it seems.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

part of that article was a quote from an article I found online some where.
it was not all mine.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Thank you.
Some times it's hard for us in the U.S. in 2010 to realize that the way we "do church" today is so different from those early believers.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

the Bible does not teach about a 5 fold ministry,it teaches the gifts of the spirit for the edification of the body.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

good stuff bro sam.. i couldnt hardly believe my eyes when i read the part about the hand , i been teaching it like that for years now and had never heard anyone bring it out like that!so its good god is speaking to those that will hear him.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Read Ephesians 4

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

and 5 of those gifts are
apostles
prophets
evangelists
pastors
and
teachers

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

This is a Bible Study I did at our local church on Spiritual Gifts

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

A friend of mine says his wife has a five fold ministry,ah, she goes about 350- 400 and rising :)

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

So where then are the modern day apostles?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

all around us.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Do you personally know one?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

If there is a church there is a five-fold ministry. Not everyone may be benefiting from it, though, but Paul said God set these ministries in the church, not just in the first century.

1 Cor. 12:28.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

yes i knew a FEW. they maynot be in every assembly ,should be , but maybot be . that would be according to how big ther congregation was and how they have been taught as well to pursue after callings and gifts!~

sam would you not say the 5 fold would be callings not gifts? just curious ..