Burning the Koran
 

Burning what our President refers to as "The Holy Koran"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_afghanistan_protest

Mon Sep 6, 9:55 am ET

KABUL (Reuters) – Several hundred Afghans chanting "Death to America" rallied outside a mosque in the Afghan capital on Monday to protest against an American church's plan to burn a copy of the Koran on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

The protesters, mostly students from religious schools, gathered outside Kabul's Milad ul-Nabi mosque to condemn plans by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center to burn copies of the Koran to mark the ninth anniversary of the attacks against the United States.

"We call on America to stop desecrating our Holy Koran," student Wahidullah Nori told Reuters. He said the street protests condemning the church would continue "every day."

U.S. President Barack Obama has made efforts to reach out to the world's 1.5 billion Muslims since taking office last year, most recently hosting Muslim leaders at the White House at the start of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan in August.

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul said the "United States government in no way condones such acts of disrespect against the religion of Islam, and is deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups."

"Americans from all religious and ethnic backgrounds reject this offensive initiative by this small group in Florida, a great number of American voices are protesting the hurtful statements made by this organization," it said in a statement.

A proposal to build an Islamic center and mosque two blocks from the site of the worst of the September 11, 2001, attacks in New York has stirred heated debate in the United States.

Opponents of the plan say it is insensitive to families of the victims of the September 11 attacks by al Qaeda.

U.S.-backed Afghan forces toppled the Taliban government in Afghanistan soon after those attacks for harboring al Qaeda leaders, including Osama bin Laden.

Demonstrations and riots triggered by reported desecration of the Koran are not infrequent in Afghanistan. The most violent protests came after cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad in a Danish newspaper in 2006.

In January this year, Afghan troops shot dead eight demonstrators and wounded 13 in southern Helmand province in a riot triggered by reports that foreign troops had desecrated the Koran during a raid. A spokesman for NATO forces denied the report.

(Writing by Tim Gaynor; Editing by Paul Tait)

Re: Burning the Koran
 

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/08/24...4XRc&wom=false

Nice. "Right Wing Extreme?"?

<sigh> When will it be called even for Sept 11th? (2) countries. 8 billion rounds fired, enough to kill or wound every man, woman, and child on the face of the earth. Tens of thousands dead in payment. A trillion dollars spent. 250 MILLION dollars was spent per victim to pound the perpetrators into the dust.

When does the healing start? Ever?

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Maybe the Muslims in Sudan, Iraq and other places can treat Christians better, that might be a start too.

As for this church, I support their legal right to do so. I don't support their decision to do so. I think it's stupid and doesn't do anything for anyone other than make a few red necks happy

Re: Burning the Koran
 

:thumbsup

Re: Burning the Koran
 

They may not have the legal right to do it if it is considered that the "speech" will incite violence. If the "speech" would cause imminent lawless action, it is not protected under the First Amendment, Brandenburg v. Ohio. The other exception it may fall under is "Fighting Words" (Keep in mind that demonstration is considered speech under the First Amendment.) "...those (words) that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Give us a break. What a sloppy to oppose something. It is the Muslims threatening violence that is wrong. They are whiners and babies. Burning garbage doesn't tell a single person to create a violent deed against a Muslim. Listen to chants at football games if you want insight. The games don't incite violence after games.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

First let me correct an error on my part. My daughter was logged into AFF and I didn't realize I was posting under her name.

I am not sure what "Sloppy" is but I am pretty sure it doesn't apply to over 70 years of Supreme Court decisions many of which were unanimous on the topic. Personally, I don't see this as free speech I see it as a deliberate attempt to stir up violence. Complete ignorance.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

How do you explain Phelps victory in Nebraska? Or Bill ayers also desecrating the flag? Theirs is free speech and protected. The opposing party is responsible for their own behavior. I understand Muslims from a different perspective. We supported a mission in a Muslim country since the 50's as a family. You are limited to the media. winning a muslim to the Lord incites violence. They get a death threat. If they return to their country they go to jail. Baron you also like the media can't read minds. Even when we send a medical doctor into the Jungle, we sometimes incite violence by the shamans and witchdoctiors.
Casting the demons out of a girl incited violence in Acts and got a couple apostles tossed in jail.

Muslims play the blame game because the the political correct crowd enable them.

Burn the quran
Create a cartoon
Convert a soul

Honor killings are actually unprovoked violence.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

If your behavior either 1. will incite other to violence through the fighting words doctrine or 2. If your speech will incite those who are listening to violence then it is not protected speech.

As to Phelps, the Supreme court had already ruled on flag burning as speech and what was being challenged was the state law against desecration of the flag.

Saying the opposing party is responsible for their behavior doesn't apply if it falls under fighting words. Flag burning has been declared Constitutional. Incidental Scalia voted in favor of allowing flag burning as a form of speech that did not and Stevens voted against it.

It is not free speech to burn a cross with "an intent to intimidate."

Re: Burning the Koran
 

I really REALLY hope this church doesn't go through with this. :(

Re: Burning the Koran
 

I think people should read some of the quran. It explains a lot of the mess we see in the Muslim religion. Burning it serves no benefit.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

:thumbsup

Re: Burning the Koran
 

You know Prax, maybe they can. A high percentage of african americans in the US (25% of young men last count were convicted felons) engage in criminal activity and violence. A higher percentage than Muslims for sure. Maybe you should disenfranchise them ALLfor that. Wait, that was tried wasn't it? It was not right either.

I am in a better position as to how christians and those of other faiths are treated in Muslim countries and I have shared openly what I know. They get rich here, raise their families here, hold services here, and live here better protected on the streets than they live or EVER lived there. They turn 60, have more money than they could possibly spend, and file for extensions to stay a couple more years. Their PENSIONS at 60 equal their salary and they have healthcare for life. Its not the money. It's the life.

Maybe the specific Muslims who do specific actions in specific countries should pay for their specific actions and the specific Muslims who are not guilty of anything at all should be left alone. You know, individuals COULD be held accountable for their individual actions. When all individuals in a group are classified under one umbrella, grouped into a class, and judged as a group it crosses a line.

There is a legal right to do anything but actions that put others in danger. Even our General in Afghanistan who is trying to work with the Afghan (Muslims also) and who has Afghan (Muslims) working with him spoke against this action as fueling violence in his area of responsibility. You think he did that because he has a love for Islam? No - it is wrong to engage in deliberate action to incite violence and hatred and if this results in spilled blood you can bet and believe that this "free speech" right will have one more chip removed from it because a 50-person church could not figure out a way to use their free speech rights responsibly.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

As usual the Muslims want it both ways.

1. They want to build a mosque in an area that offends the 911 victims and Americans in general. Yes, it is legal for them to do so, but it can/will incite retailation.

2. They don't want anyone to offend them with burning their koran. Yes, it is legal for the church to do so just as it is legal for them to burn our bibles, which is offensive to us.

If they want us to be tolerant of sacred things to them, they need to be tolerant and respectful of what is sacred and important to us as well.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Agreed. Case closed. They can exersise their rights but others cannot?

Re: Burning the Koran
 

This confuses the right to free speech and being offended with the right to the free exercise of religion.

The fact that some Americans don't want the mosque is not relevant to the question of whether the actions by this church will incite violence, not as a reaction to what is said by outsiders but by those who are part of the group themselves.

Why is it we think it is ok to drop to the level of others? Why can't we as Christians and as Americans afford more rights to others than they are willing to give to us?

Re: Burning the Koran
 

That's a rosy picture you paint, and yet the truth is another story.

"The campaign (Defending Human Rights in Islamic Countries) is the initiative of a number of Muslim, human rights, and women’s rights organizations. Its purpose is to raise awareness of, and to campaign against, the denial of internationally accepted standards of human rights to both Muslims and non-Muslims, women and men, living in the Islamic world."

"Under the Sharia and where Islam holds sway, writers, thinkers, philosophers, activists, and artists are frequently denied freedom of expression. Islamic regimes are notorious for the violent suppression of free thought. Often, as a government aligns itself closely with Islam, any critics of the government will be accused of heresy, blasphemy or insulting Islam. "

http://www.iheu.org/node/1023

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Saudi Arabia a great place to retire -

"Amnesty International today called on King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to intervene to halt the possibly imminent execution of a Sudanese man who was given the death sentence for “sorcery."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countr....do?id=1011230

"There are still scores of political prisoners and possible prisoners of conscience. Saudi Arabia continues to use flogging and amputations as punishments. Executions, beheadings with a sword, occur regularly and are disproportionately carried out against foreign nationals. Foreign workers are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation, particularly female domestic workers, who have virtually no protection at all."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countr....do?id=1101942

Re: Burning the Koran
 

I've read it. Don't like it, but think what this church is doing is ignorant and pointless.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

:thumbsup

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Just wondering, is the opinion of "I don't like it" allowed only for some purported holy books, and not for others? :hmmm

:D

Re: Burning the Koran
 

I disagree. I am very much afraid building the mosque where they want to build it may very well incite retailiation.

I think at some point it make us look weak. I don't think Christian should give in on things that are contrary to God's Word. Outside of that I agree with you.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Retaliation isn't the standard.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Umm... maybe I'm being dense today but I have no idea what you're implying... I don't like the Koran. A lot of people don't like the Bible. We're all allowed to dislike whatever we want. I don't want this church to burn copies of the Koran because I think its pointless incitement. :dunno:doh:depressed

Re: Burning the Koran
 

PARIS (Reuters) - Youths burned 1,137 cars across France overnight as New Year's Eve celebrations once again turned violent, the French Interior Ministry said on Friday. hat tip Laura

Youths burned 1,137 cars across France overnight as New Year's Eve celebrations once again turned violent, the French Interior Ministry said on Friday

Car burnings are regular occurrences in poor suburbs that ring France's big cities, but the arson is especially prevalent during New Year's Eve revelry.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...in-france.html

Did someone burn a Quran? The PC Media doesnt refer to the Muslims by name.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Oh, nuthin. It's just, some people don't seem to "allow" me to have any negative opinions on the Bible. Never mind. :thumbsup

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Oh, and, not to mention, some people don't think God would "allow" them, either. Just sayin'.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Oh, gotcha. I had a pretty negative opinion about the Bible for a long time, so I can't put anyone down for that. :)

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If that is the case, no KKK rallies would ever be held

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Not true. However they can be prevented from burning crosses in some cases. Virginia v. Black (2003).

Re: Burning the Koran
 

lol..I thought we had another lawyer on our hands.

The idea of that being hate speech is pretty subjective. We need clear guidelines.

They aren't saying "hurt muslims". They are claiming this as protest reminder of 9/11

Im curious though why the flag can be burned. That could incite violence against Americans in other nations. But it's a protected freedom. What about putting a cross in a jar of urine?

Is it really a deliberate attempt to stir up violence? I mean, what kind? Against Muslims or by Muslims against Americans? The cross in the jar is offensive to Christians but Christians don't riot so they are free to walk all over our religion.

If we drew a satirical cartoon of Mohamed that can also now be seen as inciting violence, though the intent is to make a political or religious statement about Mohamed.

I think that is too dangerous and way to subjective. I do support this churches right to do that. I support that artist's right to do what he did. I support the cartoonists right. I support anyone's right to speak up and out against the religion of Islam. I support Muslims to speak up and out against Christianity. If they want to hold a bible burning rally, I support their right to do so. I don't support their right to make speeches at that rally and advocate harm to anyone, same goes for those Christians.

I really do believe that such a ruling is a slippery slope and will lead to the stuff they had happen in Australia where a pastor was jailed under the law for defining Islam as an evil religion. A Muslim was in attendance and reported the incident.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

The violence must be expected from the speaker not the one reacting to it. If the speech is likely to incite those that are participating in the rally to violence OR make others fear that violence is impending (such as what often followed cross burning).

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Who said anyone should be disenfranchised for any reason. My point was in direct response to what you said. It doesn't just begin with us or anyone. It's something that needs to be reciprocal around the world by all of us. It reminds me of the cold war where the Russians expected us to get rid of most of our Nukes where they would only get rid of some, leaving them always with an advantage. Peace is not going to come just by Christians doing or not doing something. There are Muslims around the world who take advantage of Christians and harm them. It needs to work both ways bro.

That's all Im saying. Christians aren't fighting Muslims in the Philipines because they are Christians vs Muslims. The Muslims in PI are kidnapping, torturing innocent civilians and holding them ransom for money. They want to build a larger army and get their own independent Islamic state.

Same thing happens in India and Cashmere between Muslims and Hindus, they blow up trains and other things in India. In Pakistan they kill Christians and muslims.

That kind of stuff needs to stop too.

In Sudan they killed Christian

In Iraq Christians have been a frequent target, because they are Christians

In Palestine Christians have been run out of town by the Muslims despite having the same animosity towards the Jews of Israel.

Im sure you can generate your own list, but that doesn't annul my point. It starts with both sides reciprocating.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Are they really Christians? How do you know? I know a Missionary that spent time in SA. They are forbidden to own bibles, forbidden to bring them into the country. Forbidden to hold meetings. All meetings have to be clandestine. Why do "Christians" go there? Same reason Filipinos go there., They go for jobs. Same reason why Muslims come to America I hope, but we dont confiscate their Qurans. We don't forbid them from telling others about their religion. We don't criminalize having Islamic services. We don't kick them out of the country if they are caught.

You seem to be hung up on America vs SA, which I didn't care about to begin with. I wasn't in that discussion. You just brought it to me which is a red herring and has nothing to do with what I said or the point I was making.

No no no. They should stop. You speak of penalizing, I speak of stopping. I speak of reciprocal equivocal mutual peace and freedom of religion. What do you speak of?

Here is what I think. Most Christians in America might not agree with Islam and have an issue with the extremists but we also stand up against the Quran burners actions and say we are against it. We fight for YOUR right to worship in OUR country in a manner YOUR country will not give to non-Muslims without fear of political or religious reprisals by a state sponsored police force. Yes there are some non-muslims here that don't feel that way, but the rest of us would gladly show you that we support your right. It would be nice of the Muslims around the nation by and large did the same. Again Im not saying all, because I know how impossible it is to get all to do the same.

As I said, I support their legal right,. I don't agree with their actions

Did you read what I said? I said I disagreed with their actions. I support their legal right just as I support the legal right for Muslims to build their Mosque.

Did you read what I said????? I said I disagree with their actions.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

That seems rather subjective. I don't have any reason to believe that after a quran burning at that church that those in attendance will run out and do harm to muslims.

I think the part about "Or make others fear that violence is impending" is a huge problem. Anyone or any group can make the claim they feared for their welfare in abuse of that law.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

That's the court decision for better or worse. I don't know what will happen In suspect that something will be said as well they aren't silently throwing Korans in a fire.

No anyone can't just claim they feared, though we have exactly that with restraining orders.

If someone shows up in front of an African-American family's home with a burning cross in the back of their pickup the inhabitants could without a doubt claim a fear of violence.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

So then, they have a legal right to do this until someone get's up and makes a speech that supports or foments violence...

So no law can prevent them, but if someone makes a speech that fuels violence then legal action after the fact can be taken against the church and or pastor?

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Well legal action could be taken if some harm came to someone and it might impede others having a similar protest in the future. Let's say that the speech leaked out and local law enforcement determined that there was a call for violence then they could preemptively shut it down.

Re: Burning the Koran
 

Ok but that really has nothing to do with just Quran burning itself. It has to be with speech that could been seen as a call for violence

Re: Burning the Koran
 

No. Cross burning with an intent to intimidate is not protected by the First Amendment. I would suspect that under the right conditions burning a Koran could also fall into that category.