In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Am I the only one who leaves the brick and mortar churches of the USA and feels as if theres something missing, I sit in the pew and watch people(church leaders) put on a good show, it is entertaining but thats about all. The way I read the new testament the "church" is the body of believers in Jesus Christ and Jesus being the head, not pastors,priest,popes or any other man.

I have always(until recently) thought of church as a building, a holy place that the spirit of God dwells, we( the congregation) are under the leadership of the pastor, and his views of the word, should be our views, and if you do not agree or appose the pastors teachings you are un-godly.

I am not trying to bash pastors here, I just do not see anywhere in the new testament that puts men in charge of the "church". Church should be everyone greeting involved, not starring at the back of everyones head. How do we get to know one another's need if we never share our life together, a majority of us spend an hour a week together as a "church", My thought of the word is that we are the church 24 hours a day 365 a year.

Do you feel that way in your brick and mortar church. I don't, and don't tell me it's because I am not involved in the church, or there many programs that do a good job of making us feel better, but do little to produce fruit in the kingdom. Do you think we produce more fruit for the kingdom paying for a nice building and programs, or if all that money went to the widow in need, or the neighbor losing his home, or food banks, or countless other things.I know a lot of brick and mortar churches do these things, but compared to there budgets on salaries and building expenses, it does not compare.

Why also do we think that preachers and pastors are the only ones that have a full time ministry outside the church, we should all be sharing the gospel constantly in our on way, not just on Sunday, and then we do very little to promote the Kingdom. We go to sleep Sunday night, and wake up to our own agenda's mostly consisting on chasing the "mighty dollar" on Monday morning. Think if you had a family of believers that knew you personally, and that could help you and your family if financial problems arose, would that not eliminate a lot of your worries. Just think about my thoughts before replying. God Bless

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

No there are many of us who struggle with the fact that the church building owns it ministers and congregations and not the other way around.

Most churches spend less than 10% of their budget in outreach. Everything else is rent and salaries and internal expenses.

There are some here who hold to the house church idea like Aquila... and it sure has its appeal after you get sick of the weekly "show"... which i understand 101% what you mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qiJt8TCOLA

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Very thought provoking post. I would also say it has a good measure of conviction as well. It has only been in the last couple of years that I have been pondering this very subject myself. I sometimes think about it in relation to Jesus and the borrowed tomb, we use the facility at our current church twice in the week, yet we pay outrageous utility bills and a mortgage on the building/property.

Seems to me that for the amount of time actually spent in the church building, we could easily either do cell groups, or find some open air means of congregating when weather permits, or something. In my experience, alot of the fundraising efforts, building fund, tithe, ect., goes mostly to upkeep the building and grounds. Very little actually goes to the ministry (ala pastor), and community outreach. From a fiscal point of view it just does not make sense how we "do church" here in the US.

Having said all that, I'm certainly not "against" having a building per say, but I am against (as was stated earlier) the building having us and holding the congregation ransom. I have actually had a pastor tell me that they have seen folks who work in the financial aspects of the church backslide in part to having to deal with the pressures of the finances of the church - how sad.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Sorry but I am not one of the malcontents of this age who see bad things every time they look at brick and mortar churches.

I have news for you - anytime human beings are involved in something it is not going to be perfect. Including those of you who think you are doing something superior by leading your own little "house church". You will find the imperfections of human beings will rear its ugly head there also. Just not as often as a tiny group has fewer of those imperfect humans to make things not wonderful.

Of course there are bad churches but you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Here let me help you. start a church in your house. just start having a bible study and maybe you can get some folks to come with you.

then you wont be burdened with bricks and morter (assuming your house isnt brick) and you wont be a burden to some poor pastor who is slaving away working to pay for bricks and mortor while having to deal with anti-brick malcontents.

peace and long life my friend!

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

my church is a bad church. I HATE IT! Its the gym of a baptist church that just got bought out by an Indian Catholic group.

the good news is my church is about 3 weeks away from being an OFF THE HOOK AWESOME church! We are just about done with our new construction and it will be beyond awesome!

By the way those that hate brick and mortor churches will like ours. it is Stucco and Stone!

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

good idea, homechurch is this mans style and desire, nice

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

we have metal and stucco, works for me, dt

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Sounds like someone sorting through the frustrations of this cheap off-brand we've labeled "church" in the last few decades. I can completely relate. I didn't read your comments as if you are necessarily opposed to buildings, but how building-centered the concept of "having church" truly is. I get that.

One thing I would challenge you with is your idea that there is no leadership in God's church, that there is no one "in charge" to "feed the flock of God." Perhaps, the form and style of this "leadership" is more of what both ailes you, and what isn't perfectly matching the early church cultural rhythm.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Well, we have our American way of "doing church" and it is drawn from our Roman Catholic heritage. We have carried on the division of clergy and laity; church buildings; a favored clergy class; control of the laity by clergy; the idea that the church saves and we have to stay in the good graces of the church to stay saved; etc.

It's not perfect and it certainly has been abused by some but it's our way of "doing church."

Jesus had some disciples gathered around Him and He referred to them as His church. A few months before His death He said that He would build up/edify His Church (Matthew 16:18) upon the Rock (which I understand to be Jesus Christ). Later He mentioned His church again in Matthew 18:15-18 He gave a few more insights on His Church. It is spoken of as people, and at least 2 or 3 gathered in His name with the promise that He would be in their midst. He quoted a rabbinic saying, "If two sit together and words of Torah pass between them, the Shekhinah abides between them."

From the simple concept of two or more gathered in His name we humans have developed a system of organization with paid staff and buildings and programs.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Now that will preach!!!!! :thumbsup

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

While the NT does not show this huge clergy/laity separation, there is most certainly a distinction in roles among the community.

The issue of 2 or 3 being gathered was simply a manner of settling disputes, and doing so with the sophia of the Spirit as a witness.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

The more thats added to the "original", the more nonsense that is required from those that are a part of it. Platform standards, dress code standards, financial standards, amount of times per week to be there standards, on and on, and if you dont heed to the man made requirements, generally you will catch some nonsense about coming up short. One doesnt have to deal with all that nonsense in a house church.

And...the church is the people not a building, tho one NEVER heres it that way tho. Instead, its "Thats a beautiful church" while driving by, or 99 out of 100 times the word is used as referring to the building.

Where I generslly attend, the first 1 hour Im there I usually here ALL about the house of God (THE BUILDING) "HOW DAVID SAID "i WAS GLAD WHEN THEY DSAID UNTO ME, LET US GO INTO THE HOUSE OF THE LORD", or "How many are thankful they made it to the house of God!", or "Id rather be a door keeper in the house of the Lord than to dwell in the tents of the wicked", or "Better is one day in his courts than a thousand elsewhere" and ALL of them referring to being at that building. There is even a calender on the wall to sign your name on to work at the so called house of God one day thruout the year, and at the top of the calender it says "Better is one day in his courts!

Now its great to pitch in together and work at or clean the building, but it isnt the house of God as that temple got destryoed 2000 years ago, and now we are that temple and house for God to dwell. Even Steven got stoned to death in part, for pushing the fact that God no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

I attended a house church for the first time 3 weeks ago, and Im looking forward to attending again. Sure it can have its share of problems, but in my opinion its better and closer to the original, and will genersally have less problems because of that reason. There has to be elders that oversee, no doubt, according to scripture. But its a LOT more simplistic and personal, and without all the burdensome requirements. I do think its cool/fun to get to gether every now and then with a bigger crowd tho.

Each to his own tho I guess.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

It's interesting reading all the posts so far. Seems to me that in most respects there are two camps - the traditional building camp, and the house church camp. In my opinion both have there merits, they both have pros and cons, as does everything in life. As I said before, I personally do not have a big issue with a building, but when the trappings and payments and programs become a source of burnout and frustration and fleecing, it has gone from "having Church" to "Business as usual".

I have lived though building programs, I have seen minstry from Pastor to staff burn out and backslide, was it all because of a bulding...of course NOT, but having said that, alot of the frustration and burnout was due largely in part to trying to keep the pace of building programs, large utility bills, fundraisers, and even an onsite daycare facility.

As far as any pastor "slaving away", that is ridiculous, is he/she an infant child that they can't make sound adult decisions based on balanced perspective and common sense? Choices my friend, choices - not everything that happens in life is because of all the situations that happen around us, and certainly everyone has the free will to choose and lead as they see fit. If a person slaves away, it is in large part because they choose to do so, no more, no less.

Now a disclaimer, I do attend a church with bricks and mortar, I do love and support the ministry and saints there. Thankfully, at this point, this church is not overrun by status quo.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

I think there is one word...Balance...in everything we do....

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Building a church has a lot of problems. They continue if the construction is backed by debt. Egos also flourish when every body wants to make suggestions. I have worked in construction of a church when I was young. We had all the trades covered and everyone enjoyed the work.
The home church has many limitations. A lot of folks don't want to be in another persons personal residence.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

My issue isn't so much against the building. If a church wishes to have that kind of debt or responsibility... that's their choice. My issue is if we are having a "biblical" meeting. If all cannot prophesy... it's unbiblical.

In I Corinthians 14 Paul tells us how a church is to be run…

I Corinthians 14:26-40 (NIV)

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Paul here points out that everyone is free to bring a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. However all things are to be done in order and for the strengthening of the church. This means all may contribute but leave spiritual discipline in the hands of the elders and be sure that your teaching is something the entire group can benefit from.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

If someone gives an utterance in tongues it should be done by two – or at the most three- people. These utterances should be given one at a time and someone must interpret. If after the first utterance an interpretation isn’t gifted the speaker should keep quiet and silently pray.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

In meetings at least two or three elders gifted to prophesy (preach, teach, etc.) should speak. All other members should weigh what they preach and teach carefully.

30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

If a brother is preaching or teaching and someone wishes to expound or share additional information regarding a subject the one who was first speaking should stop and give that brother the floor. This is so that every member has the opportunity to preach and teach during the meeting and as a result all are instructed and encouraged.

32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Those who feel led of God to speak should remember that they are subject to the control of the one or two established elders of the group. This is to maintain the order that God expects.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Women should not be disruptive when the men are speaking. They are to remain in submission, as is pleasing to God. However, please note, remaining in submission means that if a woman has something to say and she is permitted to speak by the elders, she may very well prophesy. If a woman has a question about something or sees an errant teaching she should bring it to her husband’s attention at home. To correct an elder or a brother in a gathering such as this may appear disrespectful. It is disgraceful for women to speak freely and run the meetings.



Others have pointed out that Paul may be quoting a common practice within the Corinthian church that demanded that women be completely silent. Paul is believed to address this with a rebuke in the following verses...

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

God’s Word didn’t originate with us; therefore we should heed and obey. That means that all my prophesy, even women. If anyone believes they are called of God or gifted to teach and/or preach that man should acknowledge that the order Paul is setting here is the Lord’s command. This is how church is done, there isn’t another option. If a man ignores the order set herein, that man should be ignored by the group and will not progress further into ministry.

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

It’s a good thing for all to be eager to teach and share about the Gospel. And we are not to forbid speaking in tongues altogether. Paul’s point is that all things in our meetings be done in a fitting and orderly way.



I imagine that networked house churches could agree to go in together for a monthly or quarterly meeting like a conference to maintain the bonds of fellowship.



Paul specifically stated that these are "the commandments of the Lord". This could mean that groups too large to allow for the freedom for all to speak and share (as biblically set in order by Paul) are technically breaking a commandment of the Lord and not set in the pattern as found in the Word of God.



Thoughts?





God bless.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

If my God will supply all my needs, do we believe that when we place our faith in bank debt for a building program?

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Owning a building isn't wrong, nor is it a sin. However, if the congregation gets so large it becomes a "one man show"... the church becomes "unbiblical" in it's fellowship. If a church is so large that it cannot allow ALL to speak and prophesy in a given meeting, break out groups, care groups, cell churches, or something must be integrated to fulfill the standards set by Paul. The body is to minister to itself. Ministry isn't a calling for only one man in the congregation. The entire body must minister to one another. This is best done in smaller home based groups. Sadly... our legacy is "spectator Christianity" wherein Christians gather to "watch" and "listen" to one man's oratory. Sometimes there are varying degrees of praise and worship... however, people are largely just spectators who attend and go home after having watched the show. MILLIONS of Christians have never found their ministry, their place, or their gifts to offer the body because they are pew ridden.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Here is the sin of the traditional church...

3 John 1:9-10 (King James Version)
9I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

We have pastors who want preeminence among the flock. Pastors often do not receive other churches and/or ministers in fellowship. They also often don't receive the calling and ministries of others in their congregation. Sadly, the spirit of Diotrephes us alive and well.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

I do not oppose "House Church" as a concept. In fact I think it can and does work for some people.

I do have an issue with those that think there is only 1 way to do things. some who want home church want to lable the big building church as anti-bible while others take shots at home church folks the same way.

the fact is, not every person who needs the gospel will fit into the same box. we need them all.

God bless those who labor in home church settings.
God bless those who labor in small churchs that cannot even afford to pay their pastor
God bless those who labor in the medium sized church.
And God bless those who labor in huge mega churches.

In it all God needs laborers in the field doing the work.

God bless all of those who walk with a pastor and help in any way possible.

And God bless the pastors in all these settings. we need them... even pastors need a pastor.

the only other thing I would say is, dont be a problem. Be a solution!

Peace.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

If a church doesn't have the dynamic meetings that Paul stated were the "commandments of the Lord"... it's unbiblical... building or not.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

I’ve been to house church meetings where a number of believers attended who were indoctrinated by traditional church. The facilitator (elder) prays, reads the Scripture, and asks how it applies to them, what insights they bring, etc…. and the people just stare at each other. They came expecting to be “taught”. I’ll never forget how a house church elder asked, “How long has everyone been in church?” Most answers ranged from two to over twenty years. He said, “What then can I teach you??? What insight can each of you now bring to minister to each other?” The group was astounded. Slowly they began to discuss the passage, relate to personal experiences, and open up. After a few meetings things often get more open. People share their burdens and the sins they struggle with. Often there are tears, prayer, deliverances, and prophesies coming forth from men and women who were relegated to pews in the traditional setting. The body becomes powerful, dynamic, every member ministering. Sometimes a brother or sister who was otherwise very quiet opens up with something that causes the group to pause in silence with its depth and beauty. We are loosing America. Why? Because we’ve created spectators that expect something new to tickle their ears every Wednesday and Sunday night. We need to equip and unleash the church to win this world… not build empires of wide eyed spectators.

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Ah... none of the "traditionalists" wish to address this?

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Here is a great Ebook on starting a House Church

http://www.house-church.info/wp-cont...ire-volume.pdf

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Where we went wrong...

The church became a fortress from the world, instead of the hope of the world.

We went wrong with the Church quit being the church. Parachurch ministries emerged as a symptom of void coming from the Church. "When we stopped calling youth to the mission of Christ, Youth With a Mission emerged. When we ignored the opportunity to reach university students, Campus Crusade emerged. When we settled for church attendance and neglected discipleship, Navigators emerged. WHen we hesitated to call men to the role of spiritual leadership, Promise Keepers emerged. Yet while the para-church was rallying and mobilizing men and women whose hearts were longing to serve Christ, it was at the same time accelerating the spiritual anemia and decline of the local church." (McManus)

Enjoying his remarks about the ironic secularization of the church. "We were neither relevant nor transcendent. We have become, in the worst of ways, religious.... the cultural environment became comfortable, and the gospel shifted from a church "on mission" to a church that supported missions."

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

If your purpose is to be like the early church then why don't you sell all your possessions and bring it together and have all things common.

Acts 2:42* ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43* And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44* And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45* And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46* And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47* Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Just an idea!

BT

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Is mirroring the spirit (lower s), power and intentionality of the early church important to you? Is authentic and right important to you?

What if there was coming a day when the extent of Acts 2 was appropriate? How do we act out the spirit of that verse today? Caring for one another? Attending to other's needs? What do you think, BT?

Re: In need of church without brick and mortar
 

Except "falling down." That's one thing we can do and there not be any balance involved at all.