The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local...104052668.html


The problem with libertarianism is that it leads to people trying to teach others "lessons" about their bad choices. If you have the POWER to prevent a catastrophe and you do NOT, whether you are a government entity or an individual, it is morally reprehensible.

A doctor has a moral obligation to assist a dying person even if that person NEVER pays their bills. For a doctor to check with his secretary first to make sure the patient pays their bill, and THEN determine whether he/she will offer life saving assistance is an illustration of greed and inhumanity.

Likewise, for men who fight fires for a living to allow a member of their community to lose everything because he failed to pay a $75 fee? It's completely un-American. I don't care if the homeowner is a selfish miser who gambled the wrong way with his personal property; it was still immoral for that FD to stand there and do nothing. I can't imagine the MEN I know doing something like that.

What do you think? Do you think this FD did the right thing? What if someone had been trapped inside and died in the fire? (Other than the family pets, who did die in the fire.)

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

My issue is that I suspect they take federal and state dollars and decide how to govern their duties. If we grow grass, the cops will not come out unless we pay 75 dollars? Many firemen cross boundaries.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I wonder if those residents pay property tax or other city taxes.

Also I wonder if they guy was willing to pay the firemen, why not just pay the 75$ fee?

Was it made clear to the homeowners the consequences?

Why not just save the house and send the man a bill?

Also can't blame the FD really, you have to blame those that made this law

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

According to the New York Times, he had paid the bill in years past, but had failed to pay it this year.

Good questions, but what bothers me is that anyone would feel the need to check a payment record before sending help in an emergency situation. Emergencies require immediate attention, and presumably there would not be (and should not be) time to assess the finances first.

I blame the FD! They are just as guilty as their superiors. I don't know a single MAN among my friends and family who would stand and watch someone's house burn because of an unpaid bill, even if a superior ordered them to stand by and do nothing. (Assuming they had the power to actually do something about it.) I believe I read in one report that neighbors tried to help but their hoses wouldn't reach or weren't powerful enough.

There are times when you should disobey orders; IMO, this is one of them. It reflects badly on the character of every man involved that they followed the mayor's wishes.

What if the governor of New Orleans had refused to offer emergency assistance during Hurricane Katrina to anyone who was behind on their taxes?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Good points, Yeah that bothers me too that they would check. And again I don't see why not just save the house then send a bill..attack it to his property tax or something

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Well, if the guy refused to pay, he can't really complain. I do think the FD should have put it out anyway. But, I tell you what. Nobody will skip paying now, and if they had put it out, more people would have skipped paying.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

But they do pay. They cover this and other fire departments by taxes, state funding, federal grants etc. $75 dollars is just a special tarrif.

Districts are;
Union City 40-- Members, 41-- Apparatus.
S. Fulton 21--
Rives 61--
Troy 47--
Obion 81--
Hornbeak 44--
Samburg 20--
Rescue Squad 68-- Members & 69-- Apparatus

In a real world, in the case of larger fires such as this, units from several districts respond. That includes equipment that doesn't get a tarriff.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Yeah, you have a point.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I am a little bold. It would be illegal and nasty if a person came into an emergency room and they hustled to find out pay status before giving the best care.
I also know if a fireman is trained to put out fires and keep his discussion of politics inside the walls of the firestation, Many firemen agree this makes them look bad. Very bad. First rule is to protect people and property.
If a good fireman fought a fire and got fired because the mayor said he should have avoided it, he would be my hero.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

So maybe the question is why did only the South Fulton City fire departments respond? And is the city sure that none of the state or local government funding is contingent on them putting out fires in the county if necessary?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

What is over looked are the legal problems that would be incurred if the fireman assisted.

If there was any property damage, other than that which was a 'direct' result of the fire, the FD would be liable, even if the damage was necessary to fighting the fire, e.g., breaking a window or tearing up a section of the roof.

If any livestock got killed, injured, or got loose (lost). Liable.

If any individual got killed, injured, or suffered any person, physical, monetary loss, or any other emotional problems that could be attributed to the actions or inaction of any FD crew member or equipment, liable.

It has gotten so bad, that until many states passed a 'Good Samaritan' law, medical personal would not [could not] stop an give medical assistance to strangers, because of the lawsuits, anything from malpractice to criminal negligence.

If anything happened, whereby anyone associated with the fire and/or its location could claim any loss, hurt, or discomfort that could be attributed to the FD or any of its employees, that individual could loose his job, home, and possibly go to jail.

No, if this was a service contract required location, then to provide any services, no matter how well intentioned, would to be to take a gamble that could have serious repercussions beyond just putting some water on a burning building. ILegal problems could include the FD district (city, town, etc.) having to pay for the rebuilding of the house and replacing its furnishings.

Now, a few decades ago, before folks found out they could get a million dollars from a company for carelessly burning themselves with hot coffee, sold to them at own their request, and as being advertised as being 'hot', most folks would have been glad to lend a hand to save another person's home.

Or, being sued over:
A tree limb that dropped fruit on their side of a fence.
Allowing a dog to 'drop' a load outside of one's own yard, known to you or not.
Other equally insane suits. etc., etc.

In this case, while it is regrettable, I have to side with the fireman.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Okay, I understand siding with the fireman for liability issues, but what is the deal with regular taxes not covering this basic need? Basically, if you are poor, too bad with this system.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

The homeowner said they forgot to pay and the wife said they offered to pay whatever they needed to that day if they'd put the fire out.

Their grandson was living with them and he got there and tried to use the water hose to put it out......very sad.

I with you guys - - once he offered to pay, I cannot believe they refused to help him.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Well, that does shed a new light to it HaS. Thanks for explaining that.

However, what would have kept them from allowing them to pay right then to be current?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I take it you don't buy corporate liability insurance. The insurance for the firedepartment covers all of those things.
. Same as a Doctor in ER. They buy a blanket liability policy and it even covers them if they pitch in at a basketball game.

Actually the firemen can be sued big time for playing games. I can name about 20 lawyers that could take on this department.

I have purchased errors and ommissions policies for several decades.

The fireman is off the hook, because the home owner asked the 911 send them out. If the home owner said stay off the property, the story changes.

Please give us legal court cases that show lawsuits against firemen and awards for damage.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I for some reason can't find court cases for claims against firemen for fighting fires. I don't go for it.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Volunteer fire dept - - might make a difference.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

$75 = volunteer???

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Coadie,
I agree with your sentiments concerning this situation.

I do wonder if there is anything in individual firemen's professional insurance plans that would allow the insurance companies to not cover the firemen in situations like this.


If it were up to me, this law would be immediately repealed and the elected officials who supported this law would be voted out.


I am not one of those sue happy people, but in this case, if it were my family, you'd better believe I would be looking to consider all, if any, of the legal options available to me.



If one of the family members in this case had suffered smoke inhalation injuries in direct result of this fire, would the EMT's not treat that person?

If someone was trapped inside that house, would the firemen have not rescued them?


This is an example of a very bad law.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I'm with coadie on this one. Liability issues doesn't explain it. In fact no one involved cited liability issues as the reason they didn't do anything. What they claimed was they didn't do anything because they didn't pay for the service.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

That was a bad case to cite. McDonalds was in the wrong on that coffee case.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Outside a business, there are laws that require signs posting hazardous chemicals. If it was fireworks, they may not go in. I don't think it is a law. I think the tax is the ordinance or law.

The home owner subrogates rights to their insurance carrier. If the Insurance company settles and wants to file negligence with the firemen, the fire department may find that very expensive.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

The department is comprised of volunteers. They charge $75 per year to be assisted by the department should there be a fire.

What's your question?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

The city fire department of South Fulton is a volunteer fire department?

I think you read it wrong. The city fire department of South Fulton ONLY charges 75 dollars to county residents for fire service. The city dwellers don't have to pay that 75 dollar fee.

From the article cited:

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

My next question concerning this: why doesn't this particular county have any fire departments?


Seems like someone at some point of time could allocated funds for what I would call a necessary part of county government infrastructure.



So do the residents of this county pay a special fee for police protection from the nearby city as well?

This situation exposes a real jacked up mindset of the role and purpose of local government.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

That is a good question. Who is supposed to have provided fire service for the county and why didn't they?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

In 2008 the county had a meeting and didn't want a county wide program.

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20Count...Commission.pdf

38 page report.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

The first section of that report is very telling. The guy whose house burned down should blame the county and not either the fire department or city of south fulton. It wasn't the city of south fultons job to provide him with fire service. It was either his job to pay for fire service or for the county to provide it. Neither of these things happened.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I didn't read anything - it's on the news here and they are a volunteer firemen.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

It kinda says they understand the consequences of not having rural fire service when the majority of calls were rural.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Yep.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Not that bright at all.

Still, I think that there is something not right about what happened here.


The government is for the people and by the people.

Seems as if there just were not enough smart people in this particular county.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

"Reavis said he operates his all-volunteer, unpaid fire department on $8,000 a year. "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911/ns/us_news-life/

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

This case is strange.

With Medical insurance we will be unable to reject people for preexisting conditions. Buy insurance when you get sick.

I am suspicious on the 8,000 dollar budget. Do they buy insurance for the trucks and workers?

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Does this apply to God?

If so he has a lot to answer for.

Actually that questioned has been answered by the courts and the clear response is you have no duty to rescue, unless you are the cause of the person needing to be rescued.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

I'm not suspicious. He is just citing operating costs and not equipment costs.

Operating costs might be like fuel for the trucks. Electricity for the Fire station. And so on.

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Do we know, in that city and state, that the FDs are funded by state and federal grants and taxes? Also if not state or taxes, federal funding would not be enough. Im just curious and BTW....

$75 is not a lot, not enough to prop up several city FDepts. It seems more like a shakedown on homeowners since, Im assuming, those that rent a house or apartment don't have to pay. It seems like another property tax

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Maybe the Fdepts were all out on call and the call got routed to this one

Or it could be these are rural, unincorporated areas that contract out to this city?

We have areas like that that don't have police so the sheriff covers them

Re: The Flaw in Libertarian Ideals
 

Our volunteer FD has fund raisers every year. They are excellent BTW. Very caring of people and property, as we had cause to find out. Of course we know most of them well, and are friends. We do not pay anything even though we don't live within the city limits. Other VFD's help if needed. We also have excellent response time from all our FD, Ambulance, and Sheriff's Dept. We do live in a large county.