Biblical Holiness
 

For those who believe that women can't wear jewelery, pants or makeup and can't cut their hair, can you provide scripture to support your beliefs? Should we obey ministers and elders that teach this just because we should return to the "old paths" and obey the previous generation? Why should we follow these doctrines? This is a serious question, not sarcastic.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

We should focus on what the bible says not on non-biblical traditions

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

David Wasmundt is an ex UPC minister who has dealt with lots of that stuff.
He has a web site at
http://wordonwings.com/
and offers some book on the subject.
His book "Neo-Phariseeism" has helped a lot of people.
I have recommended that book to people before.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

There is a website called Acts Eighteen which deals with some of the "holiness" issues. The url is http://www.actseighteen.com/

There are several articles on there addressing specific "holiness" issues.
I recommend the site.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

What if the pastor is teaching these doctrines? Should we follow the scripture that says, "obey them that have the rule over you"?

good site sam, I read a few articles. thanks.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

That's a difficult question and something you have to decide for your self.

There are a couple of different things than can happen.
1. Some churches change pastors quite often and different pastors come in and teach different things. Pastor A may be there for two years and teach that TV is OK, it's OK for the guys to play golf, women can cut their hair as long as it is generally longer than men's styles, "modest" clothing for women can include pants and shorts as long as they are not too short or revealing, etc. Then along comes pastor B who preaches against all those things and condemns every one to hell who doesn't line up. This just causes confusion.

2. Then there could be a church who has had a pastor for a long time or several pastors and a "church standard" has been established. When a new pastor is considered, the board makes sure that he/she agrees with what have been church standards for a long time so there is no confusion.

Under number 1 above, when a pastor comes in who upsets the whole structure you can
--determine to wait him out realizing he'll be gone in a couple of years and things may improve
--stay away from church until a new pastor comes
--ignore his "standards" teaching if it is contrary to the Word i.e. follow him only as he follows Christ and the Word
--vote him out and get someone more in line with what's been accepted over the years

Under number 2 you can
--accept it as a church rule and decide if you want to go to that church just line up whether you agree or not. i.e. go along to get along
--find another church where you feel more comfortable

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Is a Pastor who teaches non-biblical doctrines following Christ?

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

You also need to take these verses into consideration:


Col. 2: 6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.

8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers[a] of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.[b] 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.[c] 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed[d] the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. 18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels,[e] saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, 19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

If you want to stay a member in that congregation and the Pastor insists the only way to do that is obey, then yes.

Ironically, I know of a very ultra conservative church whose pastor is hardline and I know of several members that outright disobey his teachings, like by having a TV. And I know of others that find loopholes like having a big screen TV and saying its just for games but watching MMA over the internet..what is more disturbing is that same individual downs other churches that don't preach hot and heavy against owning TVs.

I'd say obey as much as possible. Whatever you don't feel you want to obey as long as it's not something that will cause a controversy within the congregation then fine. For example the TV above in the first example he has them hidden away from any guest that might come over nor does he go around telling others he has one and or they should too.

My main problem with that though is the only reason he goes to that church is the Pastor has him so brain washed into feeling guilt if he were to switch churches. So what happens is any member of that church just does what they want, hides it, and pretends to be a regular member in good standing OR they just not go to church anymore, fearing visiting other Apostolic churches because of what the Pastor has said

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

That is outright bondage and hypocrisy. Those members seem like they are pleasing their Pastor instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul admonishes us in

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If we do not stand fast in our liberty, man will put us in bondage again...

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

I agree. The members are actually told they would be better off backsliding than to go to another Apostolic church even if that church is a 3 step/standard preaching church. The reason is the other churches don't preach standards 3 times a month or so or don't constantly preach against TVs or owning TVs or believe video is ok and wedding bands are ok etc etc

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

no

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

Can you demonstrate how liberal changes have proven to be beneficial?

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

well, I can't come up with stats for individuals as to how they are better off without the "standards" nor can I name churches and how they may be better off since dropping the "standards."

I personally feel like I am a better person without having a list of "do and don't" rules by which to guide my life. I have had someone who is "out of church" who told my wife that they like us better now that we don't live that way.

A couple of problems I have seen over the years with the "standards" type thing is that people's religion is more rules than it is relationship, that they are OK with God if they can check themselves against a list of rules, but a downside is that people are fearful that they may break a rule at the last minute before Jesus comes and miss the rapture. Also, I've seen too many sour puss Christians who looked the part with the hair and clothes but give off a haughty, judgmental, holier than thou aura.

This is just based on personal observation and is nothing concrete that could be used in a debate on "standards"

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

I really don't have the experience to answer you since I haven't been to any liberal Apostolic churches. I have seen PAW church with women fixed up and they seem to be OK. I think liberalism leads to a less judgemental atmosphere though I'm not sure it is a more spiritual one. That is why I asked the question in the first place.

If you believe in religous conservatism, what scriptures do you use to support your beliefs?

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

"religious conservatism" is not a biblical expression.

I am a student of the bible and really don't waste time arguing regarding vocabulary words that are not scriptural.

It kinda puts you in the same predicament. You can't argue the other side of the coin.

Apparently the liberal dressed up churches are doing so to be seen by other people.

I do see a very strong trend that people use their culture to interpret scripture.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

1 John 2:15-17 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I know all of these can be disputed either way , but this is the way I see things. I'm not a standards holder, but I believe we understand what the above is saying. Who choses what of the world we should not be apart of is the fence that seperates many. I don't have that answer.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

That's probably for the best.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

Most of those you call "liberals" have not made any "changes." It is the so-called "conservatives" who have made radical changes to the UPCI and the Apostolic Faith movement in general.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

You, for example?

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

I think we all do and will admit it if we are honest.

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

I believe we should obey the Bible and live clean Christian lives of prayer. The "standards" of the previous generation weren't always "biblical".

Re: Biblical Holiness
 

That may not be "quote of the month"
but
I will nominate it for "understatement of the month."