Gays In the Church
 

There is a pentecostal church organization here in Puerto Rico that was sued and lost a multimillion dollar lawsuit for firing a homosexual man. Now there are 2 or 3 pastors with homosexual tendencies and the church can't do anything to them but let them be.

I don't understand all of the details or legalities of the case, but how can homosexuals stay in church positions? Can anyone explain the legal rights of gays in church employment? I thought the church had rights but I may be wrong.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I remember from years back, I'm not sure if anything has changed legally, but it seems like you have to have a set guideline or parameter for paying positions. I remember there being concern about hiring outside the church for nursery positions, because once you do that, you have opened that door. I may have it wrong, and it may have changed, I haven't kept up.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

This depicts the progressive agenda.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

There must be a statement of ministry that all employees and volunteers (pastors, nursery workers, janitors, secretaries, Sunday School teachers, youth workers, etc. etc.) are required to read and sign prior to employment or volunteering. The person should be given a copy of this after they signed it. (The original should be kept in their personnel file and yes, "volunteers" should have a personnel file as well!)

As long as it clearly explains what the church stands for and what is accepted and what is not, the church can clearly dismiss from ministry any employee/volunteer who doesn't abide by those guidelines. This should list everything from drug use to fornication to adultery to child molestation to the "minor" non-Biblical standards your church requires (jewelery, make-up, hair length, dress code, etc. etc). If the church currently does not have such a statement of ministry, they can implement it and have current employees/volunteers sign. As long as the prospective employee/volunteer understands and is aware of it, and the items are clearly listed, it will stand up in a court of law - IF the employee has signed and dated it.

Christian Law Association is a great resource for information regarding protecting your ministries!

Many secular corporations use something similar regarding tattoos, piercings, hair length for men, and dress codes for both men and women - and courts respect it - as long as it can be proven that the person knew about the guidelines upon accepting employment.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Operative word there.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Re: Gays In the Church
 

why is he considered the expert?

Re: Gays In the Church
 

ignorance

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Re: Gays In the Church
 

It seems to me that the church bylaws could have prevented the law suit if the bylaws had stated something to protect them as far as homosexuals are concerned.

I wouldn't go to a church where the pastor had homosexual tendencies.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Firing someone from an employment position and taking away someone's license are two totally seperate things.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I've explained that Avatar.
It's not my real hair.
A couple of years ago we were in a Halloween store getting costumes for some grand kids. I saw that hat with the hair and tried it on and someone got a picture. I think I used it as an Avatar before.

Besides, that hair is much shorter than someone who might be taking a Nazarite vow over an extended period of time.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

an article which I've posted before:

God's Ocean of Grace
Luis Palau
Thank God His grace isn't fair.

Nearly two years ago, one of my nephews (I'll call him Kenneth) was near death. He had AIDS. During a family reunion in the hills of northern California, Kenneth and I broke away for a short walk. He was a hollow shell, laboring for breath.

"Kenneth, you know you're going to die any day," I said. "Do you have eternal life? Your parents agonize. I must know."

"Luis, I know God has forgiven me and I'm going to heaven."

For several years, since his early teens, Kenneth had practiced homosexuality. More than that, in rebellion against God and his parents, he flaunted his lifestyle.

"Kenneth, how can you say that?" I replied. "You rebelled against God, you made fun of the Bible, you hurt your family terribly. And now you say you've got eternal life, just like that?"

"Luis, when the doctor said I had AIDS, I realized what a fool I'd been."

"We know that," I said bluntly but deliberately, because Kenneth knew full well what Romans 1 teaches. "But did you really repent?"

"I did repent, and I know God has had mercy on me. But my dad won't believe me."

"With good reason," I said. "You've rebelled in his face all your life. You've broken his heart."

Kenneth looked me straight in the eye. "I know the Lord has forgiven me."

"Did you open your heart to Jesus?"

"Yes, Luis! Yes!"

As we put our arms around each other and prayed and talked some more, I became convinced that Jesus had forgiven all of Kenneth's rebellion and washed away all his sin. Several short months later, he went to be with the Lord at age 25.

My nephew, like the repentant thief on the cross, did not deserve God's grace. I didn't either. None of us do. That's why grace is grace--unmerited favor.

But it goes against all sense of "fairness" that Kenneth could enter heaven and forever enjoy its holy glory after living all but a few months of his young adult life in open spiritual rebellion. Fairness requires that heaven be reserved only for people like his mom and dad, who by faith have lived in service to God for 30 years and plan to serve Him, as God enables, for 30 or 40 more.

Fairness requires that heaven be home for John the beloved apostle--who obediently cared for Mary the mother of Jesus after the Lord's death and who endured persecution and exile in Jesus' name--not for a thief who repents two or three hours before his death.

But the words of Jesus leave no doubt: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Feel the authority? With the power that upholds the universe, Jesus assures a dying man--a legally convicted, admitted criminal--of eternal life. As it does today, assurance of salvation rested in the unbreakable promise of God--God's trustworthiness, not man's fickleness--founded on the Savior's substitutionary work on the cross.

Moments earlier, this thief was among the many who taunted the Savior as He hung on the cross:

"You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself!"

"Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

"He saved others, but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel!"

"Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him."

"He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him...."

Then Matthew adds, "In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him" (Matthew 27:39- 44).

How can this man be among the worshiping multitude in heaven, singing, "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" (Rev. 5:12)?

Only by grace.

I've sometimes found it hard to be kind and patient with someone who has openly, purposefully, and recklessly broken a basic command of God and then is suffering the consequences. Until Kenneth put a human face on AIDS and homosexual sin, it was with trepidation--never too loud--that I'd say, "God loves homosexuals."

My nephew has made me more tender, and more bold, in discussing God's forgiveness with anyone who has committed blatant sin, whatever it may be, if that person truly repents.

Still, it doesn't come easy. In churches across America, I enter the danger zone when I say with conviction, "God loves homosexuals. Amen?"

There aren't many amens. Stone faces shout by their silence, "That isn't fair!"

Neither is grace.

God is like the owner of the vineyard who paid the same wage to workers who labored only one hour as he did to those who labored all day (Matt. 20:1-16). "You have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day," they complained. Wouldn't you?

Replied the landowner, "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

God's grace is generosity extraordinario, love without limits. In those agonizing moments of Grace lifted up from the earth, a criminal repented of unbelief, rebellion, and insults. Before the day ended, he joined Jesus in paradise.

Though it wouldn't be fair, having squandered so much, prodigal America has never needed grace more. Kenneth and a thief without a name send the same message: There's no bottom to God's ocean of grace.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Do you all think there is a place in the church for homosexuals?

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Absolutely...at the altar of repentance.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Many places for them. "Come and See!" And even Discipleship. But when it comes to maturing and leading, living dead is not an option.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

That is not what I meant. I also wasn't meaning a place for them in leadership either. Since this sin is no different that any other sin, except in the eyes of saints and republicans, should they be able to attend church freely? IMO, I say yes, but with the condition that they don't practice the sin. www.realityla.com has people like this. I mean it is no different that an adultress or adulter attending church if they stop their "adulting". Again this is my opinion. It is a sin, no doubt, but only the church and republicans view it as perverse. While it is still sin it is as perverse as somethings that some straight couples do, but since the Bible classifies it as a sin it is viewed differently. Why is there a seperation in the minds of some many?

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I feel ya. Anyone can be reformed, God forgetting their past, but man never will. So there will be some people that no matter the rehab someone has gone through some people will NEVER let someone like this attend or even help out as they progress.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

If they stop their "adulting"...and repent they are no longer an adulterer or adulteress.

If a homosexual repents and stops doing homosexual actions....they are no longer a homosexual.

They may struggle with the feelings and temptations, but in Gods eyes they are forgiven and no longer a homosexual.

Homosexuality is a sin
Lying is a sin
Adultry is a sin
Gambling, drug abuse, stealing, etc....are all sins...however when we repent and stop doing those things...we in Gods eyes are no longer a addict, alcoholic, homosexual, fornicator, lyer, thief...whatever...we are washed and forgiven.
Society may view us as what we once were....we may still struggle with those things....but in Gods economy we are blood washed Saints of the Most High.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I agree with everything you just said, except gambling. Gambling can be a sin when it takes away from food for the family, etc. Otherwise it is not a sin. I gamble every now and again when I go to Laughlin, but it might be $100 bucks max and generally it was a gift to me so I could actually play. I always come home a winner. In fact I went once on a paid for trip, paid by someone else. I was given $100 to spend or gamble. I didn't have the money to pay rent so I wasn't going to play at all. My wife and I went to play penny slots. About 4 dollars into a $20 bill I hit for over 1 grand, cashed out and was done. Paid my rent too. I never lose more than what I budget whether it is $5 bucks or $100.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Whether you win or lose is not the issue with me....if tomorrow you were to hit the superlotto and win 100 million bucks...realize that at least part (probably a large part) of that money comes from the pockets of folks who are addicted to gambling and are using funds that should have went to clothe, feed, and house spouses and children....who unfortunately had no say in what that person did with the money.
So the winnings that you receive come on the backs of innocent unfortunates who suffer because of gambling.


Enjoy your winnings.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

that was snarky..wasn't it....sorry JT.

Seriously I certainly do not equate gambling a little here and there with adultery thievery etc....but it really does bother me that the winners do so at the expense of many helpless.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

The Bible says the "wealth of the sinner is laid up for the righteous." LOL

In all seriousness though I don't see the big issue if you aren't taking away from God and your family. Perhaps it isn't being the best steward you can be, but it is not sinful. It is considered that way by some money hungry people and preachers.

The people aren't helpless though. They can say no. No matter how addicted one is to anything they must say yes over saying no when partaking in whatever it is.

Let me ask you something. Would you take a large tithe check from someone that won a large lottery?

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Nah, since we're off topic anyway, ask instead: would you accept tithes from a welfare recipient? A widow with five kids who was struggling to pay bills? A person who didn't pay rent because tithes come first?

Re: Gays In the Church
 

From the Admin of the Apostolic Friends Forum

As Christians, our response to the issue of homosexuality is twofold:

1. Homosexuality is one of many sins that bring destruction and pain to the life of the sinner. There can be no positive outcome of sin, so compassion for the sinner requires that we lovingly apprise them of their need for change. Withholding truth from the lost is not a loving or compassionate response to their state. Therefore the forum will not shy away from noting what is sin from a scriptural standpoint, providing that truth is shared in love.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2. The Christian response to a sinner should be the same, no matter what the sin. We should respond with a biblically based solution that illustrates clearly the sinful nature of any particular deed, and also clearly illustrates the compassionate response of Christ to sin. He offers forgiveness to the repentant, plain and simple, and new life in Him. It is not judgmental to acknowledge what is sin, and in fact it is destructive to turn a blind eye to sin. If the lost are not convinced that they are in a position of estrangement from God, they will never be able to come to a place of repentance and be a recipient of His mercy. Therefore, as Christians, both on this forum, and in our personal lives, we should seek to lead sinners to repentance, so they might find new life in Christ.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

As forum Admin, we will not allow the gay agenda to be pushed on this forum. Meaning, we will not allow a constant barrage of rhetoric designed to make those who adhere to biblical values and scriptural truths feel guilty or inferior. We will not allow a push for acceptance of the gay agenda and lifestyle, and call a rejection thereof a rejection of the individual. They are not one and the same, and should not be treated as such. A rejection of sin is not a rejection of the sinner.

We will not allow a defense of the gay agenda and lifestyle by more liberal leaning minds, or overt criticism toward those who don't practice a similar tolerance for sin.

There are numerous forums online where the gay agenda can be openly proclaimed, even within Christian ranks. There are numerous Christian groups (using the term loosely) who have decided to accept practicing homosexuals as brethren, and perhaps feel they are practicing the love of Christ in doing so. We feel they err, because the love of Christ involves freeing a soul from sin; not encouraging the soul to continue to wallow in the mire.

Therefore, while we allow debate and discussion on the AFF, and we encourage anyone to join who shares an interest in Apostolic topics and concerns, we will not allow an overt attack on biblical values and truths, and upon the character of those who live and preach the same.

Hopefully this will help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Okaaayyy....time to change the subject.....


Seriously....and in all honesty....not sure how I would react to it....maybe God needs to send me a test on that one...:hmmm

Re: Gays In the Church
 

The helpless ones i am talking about are the victims...those children and spouses of the addicts.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

nope

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Yes......because it is right...I have been pretty poor in my life...and i always paid my tithe.....first.

And God has always came through...

We dont pay our tithe if we can afford it...we pay them because it is God's money.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

LOL, good answer. I think that unless it was money that was obtained through illegal ways you or anyone should take it. IMO.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with you here. Strange feeling agreeing with you. LOL

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Question for you. Was anyone propagating the gay agenda? Also can one give their opinion of homosexuals having put their past behind them (because an addict of any kind will always be an addict even if they give it up they may just be a non-practicing addict) and turn toward Christ being able to work in the church without being banned?

I am just trying to figure out where the line is so it is clear where to stay away from. Thanks for your response.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

JT, I am personally confused concerning your first question. Charges of "propagating" have not been made here...

The Admin statement stands on it's own. The statement is not new.

Those who have turned to Christ and forsaken homosexuality may certainly share their testimony of the same.

If you have serious doubt regarding compliance, my suggestion is to refrain from making the post.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Funny thing happened a few years ago here in our town...a fellow was growing pot and selling it...so he paid his tithe to his Mormon Bishop...all $18,000 of it...to the Bishops credit instead of taking it no questions asked...he let the police know and they busted the dude.

Might have been a different situation though if the LDS tithe went to the bishop and not Salt Lake

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I don't have any doubt that I was well within the rules. What I was asking is, based on the Admin post which agreed is not new, is that what was said well with in the rules by the Admins point of view. The reason I asked is that no one had propagated the homosexual life style as being ok, or at least no post I read. So since the Admin post was there I took it to mean that someone had over stepped the rules. Does that make better sense? I hope so.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Perhaps, but from the LDS Bishops that I know and I know a few of them there is no way that it would have gone unreported. They are good and upstanding peeps, at least the ones I know.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Yes It does. I think it was nothing more than stated, to "help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates."

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I saw it as a preemptive warning. Admins have a sense for impending danger. (I speak from experience. ;))

Re: Gays In the Church
 

Fair enough. Just doing my due diligence.

Re: Gays In the Church
 

I agree, but I was making sure that nothing I had said was perceived wrong. Pentecostals often "perceive" things in the spirit that aren't acutally happening. LOL