NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

NOW, let's get away from DA's belief since he is not here to defend himself. When do YOU believe someone is saved? If 3 stepper's disagree with you, are they teaching false doctrine?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

If ANYONE cheapens God's grace by creating formula and systematic steps, adding that one can only merit God's grace and saving power if they do XYZ, they are mangling the entire Story of God.

This is, in fact, false doctrine. Inside churches where this is taught, there are still many people who profess Jesus as LORD, manifest their belief by a life lived in Christ, etc... But I worry for those who promote this heresy of steps. It ends up playing out in almost every area of their theology (not just their soteriology).

But this is a nice deflection. You are adding-to salvation -- we would say someone is saved without your add-ons, providing they come to Christ believing that He alone saves them. The reverse is not true from your perspective to those who preach faith alone. Or is it?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

So do you believe anyone who teaches 2, 3 or more steps to salvation is going to hell? :coffee2

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Jeffery, So you believe that someone who teaches that one is not saved until water and spirit baptism is teaching heresy? How does water and spirit baptism take away from the grace of God?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

I believe, like those who Paul challenged, they've not only added steps, but redesigned the whole story of Grace. Whether they perish or not, they are nevertheless in heresy.

In the middle of this theology, there are most certainly pockets of grace-less works substituting themselves as God's work, and most certainly will be judged by God.

I teach "other steps" but that's I don't redefine grace and say those things will save you. They are taught as ordinances of the Church, and as a byproduct of a life lived out in grace.

I have sincerely questioned lately, since I was a step-preacher at one point (pun intended), how God will judge those. Paul was quite vocal. The NT was quite vicious toward false teachers. So... what is our response?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

It redefines grace as something we have to accomplish, rather than a gift given. God found Abraham. He found Noah. He chose David. He found Paul/Saul. Grace comes and explodes into our life. It's all God's work. No one even confesses Jesus as Lord except by the Spirit. He did the work. He saved us. I believe the Gospel of John alone is a testament to this work in our hearts.

To honestly answer your question, yes I do believe it's heresy (that is, adding to the Gospel).

How will it be eternally judged? I'm not sure, DM.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

You tell me; what is your response? Are heretics going to be saved?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

It depends what the heresy is. If it's heresy against the Gospel, I can't say for certain, but it's not good ground to be on. But most of us got where we are by tradition of false teaching, so there are unique aspects to all of this.

What is your opinion about false teachers, MB, as it relates to scripture?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

I will just tell you this: when I saw it. When I saw God's grace for the first time (it was after 3 decades in the Church, mind you), the first thing I did was weep and wonder if I was even saved before. Granted, that was only an expression of my emotions, but it's how deep and life-changing that moment was.

I don't say this mean-spirited at all. I just really worry about people that put commands in front of Grace -- PARTICULARLY, demanding that people speak in tongues to be saved.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Jeffery water and spirit baptism are acts of Grace. People are water baptized and God remits sin. Water baptism is a bible command like circumcision was for the old covenant. Spirit baptism is an act of Grace when God fills with his spirit. Where do you see commands of men adding to the work of grace by God?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Giving is an act of grace. Doing good works are acts of grace. Worship is an act of grace. Where does this end?

It's like God has just told the most incredible story ever. His own. He shows off. Like many, he delights in giving. Then, someone takes the mic and tries to make secondary remarks over top of his story. Qualifying it.

Telling someone they must speak in tongues to be saved is the greatest heresy, DM. No matter how much we consider Spirit baptism to be an act of Grace (and it is). But where did we first receive grace? Are we saved of ourselves, our the same as Abraham, by believing? What does it mean to believe? Can I believe without the Spirit?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Paul says in Romans 8, he that hath not the spirit of God is none of his. This is not man's commandment. It is a bible command. Or do you disagree with Paul also? Could Abraham be saved if he disobeyed circumcision?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Is this addressed personally to NOW (Not Of Works) or was that first word supposed to just be "Now" as in one of the following definitions:

–adverb
1. at the present time or moment: You are now using a dictionary.
2. without further delay; immediately; at once: Either do it now or not at all.
3. at this time or juncture in some period under consideration or in some course of proceedings described: The case was now ready for the jury.
4. at the time or moment immediately past: I saw him just now on the street.
5. in these present times; nowadays: Now you rarely see horse-drawn carriages.
6. under the present or existing circumstances; as matters stand: I see now what you meant.
7. (used to introduce a statement or question): Now, you don't really mean that.
8. (used to strengthen a command, entreaty, or the like): Now stop that!

–conjunction
9. inasmuch as; since: Now you're here, why not stay for dinner?

–noun
10. the present time or moment: Up to now no one has volunteered.

–adjective
11. up-to-the-minute; encompassing the latest ideas, fads, or fashions: the now look; the now generation.

—Idioms
12. now and again, occasionally. Also, now and then.
13. now that, inasmuch as; since: Now that she is rich and famous, she is constantly being besieged by appeals for aid.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

What if a person's heart is right but his/her head is wrong?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

I, of course agree with Paul, as I do with John 3:5. I don't try to make the Pauline or Johannine perspective of the Spirit speak for Luke's.

The question is not "could Abram be saved if he did not." It was accounted to him as righteousness because he believed.... you are asking the wrong question. Could Abram been saved had he not believed?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Sam, you are welcomed to comment. NOW has gone to bed with high blood pressure attacks.

Jeffery, circumcision was part of the old covenant and the bible says whosever was not circumcised had no part in the nation of Israel and the promises of God. So what would've happened if Abraham did not circumcise? He would have been cut off and lost. imo

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Highly recommend you checking out an old thread "Spirit and Salvation" or something like that. Especially clue in to Adino's remarks. I think you'd at least enjoy hearing the perspective more fleshed out. It's impossible for me (time-wise) to attempt to fully recreate that.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Circumcision was an ordinance. A sign of God's promise to them.

This still is not the question. What effected God's saving Grace? #1 God initiated Grace, not Abram. #2 Abraham's believing (same as Romans 4) effected the power of God in Abram's life. I think Romans 4 will speak to the circumcision issue, as to whether there was a role in salvation for circumcision. Are you familiar?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

are you saying luke teaches a different perspective? what does luke teach?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Yes, I am.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

This is true, however our 1-step brothers would deny that as person can be saved without the Spirit. They deny a person HAS to speak in tongues in order to have the Spirit.

Also. many teach a difference between the infilling with tongues and receiving the Spirit.

They see these as 2 distinct events and endowments. One is sanctification/salvation of the Spirit in our lives and the other is an empowerment after salvation

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

In John, we see the Spirit in salvation. In Paul, the Spirit in sanctifying, and in Luke, the Spirit in empowering/equipping for mission.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

my sword is rusty

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

GEN 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he countedit to him for righteousness.

GEN 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The idea that God makes a Covenant with a sinner is false. The idea that God gave circumcision *as* the Covenant is false. God made the Covenant "BECAUSE" of the object of Abraham's faith and because he believed and obeyed him by faith.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

This is true. Thanks for accurately presenting the other view.

It's the same Spirit, different role. The Spirit of God is involved from the beginning and will until the final resurrection.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

our "1 step brothers" are saying 3 steppers are teaching heresy. what say ye?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

And our 3 step brothers would say our 1 step brothers are teaching heresy. I'll leave that distinction to you guys who seem to like drawing those kinds of distinctions

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

I'm saying that one-steppers and three-steppers are both teaching salvation by faith but we present it differently. We both teach that justification/salvation/regeneration is by faith and we both say that faith is more than just a mental assent. One steppers say that faith is trust in Jesus that results in a change in the person's attitude and actions even though those changes may not be perceptible for some time. Three steppers say that faith is trust in Jesus that results in water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost Baptism.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Sam, what I previously believed about grace is not just a different presentation, it's a different perspective... more dramatically said, it's a different paradigm. When we leave the onus on God for saving us, that affects how vivid and real we see grace, and just how gracious that God is.

While I think your unity statement is true for some in both of these camps (because we all know there are exceptions), as far as a theological position, the differences couldn't be more stark IMO. Maybe I'll soften that view in time. Right now, it's contrastingly different. I never realized how much that theology penetrated into absolutely every area in the believer's life: from seeing grace, to acting out in grace (gracious living) to trusting the security of God's salvation to keeping sanctification in perspective.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Fair enough, Prax.

It's not so much I'm bent on making that distinction as much as just identifying a distinction that seems to be so obvious.

I sincerely am not discussing this with contempt, prejudice or anger. Posts like these are what AFF was built on.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Id rather discuss what the bible says one way or another rather than declare someone a heretic.

What exactly does it accomplish for anyone's benefit to declare someone a heretic?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Sorry I missed out on my grilling. I'll catch up but in short, I believe what the bible says!:D I'll answer, though.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

I believe you are truly saved when you get to heaven.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Do you believe you can lose your salvation?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Very similar experience for me. I finally felt, and still feel, like a stereotypical "New Convert."

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Here are just a few of the verses that describe directly how we are "Saved."



1) Romans 10:4...For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.

2) Romans 10:8...Salvation that comes from trusting Chris–which is the message we preach–is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."

3) Romans 10:9...For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4) Romans 10:10...For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

5) Romans 10:13...For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

6) Acts 2:21...And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

7) Acts 13:39...Everyone who believes in him is freed from all guilt and declared right with God–something the Jewish law could never do.

8) Acts 16:31...They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household."

9) I Corinthians 1:21...Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

10) Romans 5:1...Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of that Christ our Lord has done for us.

11) John 11:25...Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again."

12) John 11:26...They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish.

13) John 3:15...So that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.

14) John 3:16...For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

15) John 5:24...I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death to life.

16) I Timothy 1:16...But that is why God had mercy on me, so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others can realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

17) Romans 3:25...For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us.

18) Romans 3:28...So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

19) I John 5:1...Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.

20) I John 4:15...All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

21) II Timothy 3:15...You have been taught the holy Scriptures since childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

the question is, how do you get there?

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

Anything that we have done, any formulas of salvation that we figured out, any actions that we took, any movements that we made, any steps we have taken.....is something we can take credit for and is an addition to the cross of Jesus Christ.



"Notice what large letters I use as I write these closing words in my own handwriting. Those who are trying to force you to be circumcised are doing it for just one reason. They don't want to be persecuted for teaching that the cross of Christ alone can save."

Galatians 6:11-12 NLT

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

Hard question. I believe people make choices to live for Christ and continue to walk in the faith. I believe there are people who choose to walk away from Jesus and deny Him.

I don't think you just lose your salvation like your car keys.

Re: NOW, When Is Someone Saved?
 

now, I believe all those scriptures, how do you answer john 3:5 except a man be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Romans 8 except a man have the spirit of God he is none of his. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Baptism doth also now save us.