The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

The sermon yesterday was around two subjects: one, communion, and two, the role of prophets in the local church.
The preacher was charismatic but imo not anointed/excited/energized by what he was preaching. We were having communion at the end of service so he began to speak about prophecy on an individual basis. He said,

"God does not prophesy on the basis of direction but in rather in confirmation".


Comments, anyone?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

God speaks in direction, or confirmations, or direction and confirmation.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

There is a difference between a prophet and the gift of prophecy.

A prophet is one of the gifts God has given the church, see Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Corinthians 12:28. Only two or three prophets are to speak, and what they say is to be judged by the hearers (ref 1 Corinthians 14:29-31) but all can prophesy. A person who prophesies speaks for:
edification (to build up)
exhortation (to stir up)
comfort (to lift up or to cheer up)

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Dale Yerton in his book "Foundation Faith" copyright 1984 compares the offfices/gifts of Ephesians 4:11 as follows:
Apostle governs
Prophet guides
Evangelist gathers
Pastor guards
Teacher grounds

Lee Stoneking in his book "Five-Fold Ministry and Spiritual Insights" copyright 2003 uses the same analogy.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Now, this man was speaking as the pastor/CEO of the church. I almost had the feeling that someone's life had been "spoken into" by a prophet concerning leaving the church. Whether on good terms or not I don't know, it was the impression I received.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

last night at church a little old lady, came by to us, and we had not seen her in awhile. she had broken her arm, but was back in church.

we was happy to see her, and when we greeted, man she goes off in tounges then speaks deep cutting wounds into me, man she read my mail, seems like every time she speaks its the Spirit of God.

I said last night, she is a prophet and are church really doesnt know it.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Huh?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

God has given her the ability to read your mail and bring it to the front. i.e. tell you things you really know about yourself or have been hiding

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

I would love to meet her! I know someone willing to give a million dollars if she can do this under laboratory conditions. :)

Either that or she can start her own 'psych'ic detective business with her comic sidekick, Gus.
http://www.tv-flip.com/wp-content/uploads/psych1.jpg

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

And you think this is prophecy, God back and read Sams post on what a prophet does, he never reads those things that you have been hiding, he exhorts, comforts, and edifies.

You are mistaking the gift of wisdom or word of knowledge with prophecy. This is what gets me we don't know what the gifts are as we don't have them working in the church in a way that we understand them. Yet we act like we have the whole truth. And claim to have the gifts working in our churches.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

trust me there was words of prophecy envolved i just didnt tell them here. cause they were for me and my wife, but you can actually see some of it already unfolding in my other "what would you do post."

but yet i have seen prophecies to comfort and edify, i have also seen them as a rebuke and a warning

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Interesting, Sam. I also pondered the distinction of the prophet in Ephesians and the gift of prophecy and exhortation of "I wish you all would prophecy" in 1 Corinthians 14, in an attempt to find that distinction.

What I can make out today is that a prophet is often a voice to the Church. The prophet is the moral objector, the one who may confront our direction, ask us to reflect upon our heart, etc... IMO most UPCI Evangelists (and other denoms) don't truly operate as an evangelist, but rather in a prophetic sense. An evangelist should take up a post in the City to bring masses to Jesus, baptize them and disciple them. The one-day scream in tongues, collect a check and leave is not very evangelistic.

But the prophet... is it an office or a role? It sounds like there are multiple people in the church with this gift. Does anyone ever get the sense of frustration of being so far from the early church model?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Is the end result that you feel closer to Jesus?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Interesting.

When Samuel confronted David, was that prophecy, the role of a prophet or something different because it was pre-Pentecost?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

yea the relationship had changed over night. and yes been praying more

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

I beg to differ.

John 4:16-19 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. (17) The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: (18) For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. (19) The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Prophets indeed do foretell (tell what is coming) and tell forth (tell the hidden past, secrets of the heart).

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Notice that Jesus foretells these things so that she will know He is the I AM. That's the entire point. She runs and tells the whole city. He also doesn't embarrass her or shame her. He lets her know he's the real deal and them gives her hope, telling her she will "drink and never thirst again."

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

I agree that the point of any prophecy is to glorify God. The LORD used prophets in the OT and NT to glorify Him, to warn, to exhort, to stir up, to tell forth, to for tell, etc., and all for His glory.

Are you implying with this statement that prophets should not inspire shame in a person? Both rebuking sinners in the church openly (embarrassment) and inspiring conviction in the hearer inwardly (Godly sorrow worketh repentance, shame) are examples that were given in the OT and NT. There is no scriptural evidence to infer that He publicly embarrassed her by running and telling her sin, but it was obvious that she was taken aback and ashamed by Him calling out the sin that she had tried to hide in her heart. It's that shame that leads a person to repentance.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

It is my understanding that a prophet is one who speaks for another.

According to the Strongs Concordance the word in the Old Testament is nabiy
5029 nbiy' neb-ee' (Aramaic) corresponding to 5030; a prophet:--prophet.
5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet. 5031 nbiy'ah neb-ee-yaw' feminine of 5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication, a poetess; by association a prophet's wife:--prophetess.

I have also heard or read somewhere that it can also mean "to bubble up" describing how a person speaks as the Holy Spirit within him/her bubbles up

In the New Testament the word is prophetes
4394. propheteia prof-ay-ti'-ah from 4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other):--prophecy, prophesying.
4395. propheteuo prof-ate-yoo'-o from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.
4396. prophetes prof-ay'-tace from a compound of 4253 and 5346; a foreteller ("prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet.
4397. prophetikos prof-ay-tik-os' from 4396; pertaining to a foreteller ("prophetic"):--of prophecy, of the prophets. 4398. prophetis prof-ay'-tis feminine of 4396; a female foreteller or an inspired woman:--prophetess. 5578. pseudoprophetes psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace from 5571 and 4396; a spurious prophet, i.e. pretended foreteller or religious impostor:--false prophet.

I have heard or read somewhere that the word prophetes can mean "one who speaks for another." In my Apostolic Bible Polyglott (which is a Greek/English interlinear Bible) with Strongs numbers the definition for prophetes is "declarer." In that Bible, Exodus 7:1 reads: "And the Lord said to Moses, saying, Behold I have made you as a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet." The Greek word translated prophet there is prophetes (no. 4396). As Aaron was the spokesperson for Moses, a prophet (prophetes) is a spokesperson for God --or a prophet is one who speaks for God.

Another Old Testament word for prophet was "seer" (reference 1 Samuel 9:6-9 where Samuel is called "a man of God" and also a "seer" with the explanation that the person usually called a prophet at the time this book was written used to be called a seer."

The word seer in the Old Testament is Strong's number 7300 or 2374
7200 ra'ah raw-aw' a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.
or
2374 chozeh kho-zeh' active participle of 2372; a beholder in vision; also a compact (as looked upon with approval):--agreement, prophet, see that, seer, (star-)gazer.

It is my understanding that the term "seer" meant that a prophet had spiritual discernment or could see things from more than just a human viewpoint or could actually see visions.

Note: These quotes from Strongs are taken from
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
I used the second option of entering the Strong's number and choosing either Hebrew or Greek in Strong's Lexicon.

I do not read Hebrew or Greek so I am at the mercy of the authors of the Strong's Concordance.

Years ago there were three main concordances that I heard of: Cruden's, Strong's, and Young's. Someone said that Cruden's was for the crude, Young's was for the young, and Strong's was for the Strong. That was in the day before the internet when we had to look at paper copies of Bibles, commentaries, concordances, etc.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

from Smith's Bible Dictionary (another older work) but this is from the online version at
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dicti...y/prophet.html

Prophet. [E]

The ordinary Hebrew word for prophet is nabi , derived from a verb signifying "to bubble forth" like a fountain; hence the word means one who announces or pours forth the declarations of God. The English word comes from the Greek prophetes (profetes ), which signifies in classical Greek one who speaks for another , especially one who speaks for a god , and so interprets his will to man; hence its essential meaning is "an interpreter." The use of the word in its modern sense as "one who predicts" is post-classical. The larger sense of interpretation has not, however, been lost. In fact the English word ways been used in a closer sense. The different meanings or shades of meanings in which the abstract noun is employed in Scripture have been drawn out by Locke as follows: "Prophecy comprehends three things: prediction; singing by the dictate of the Spirit; and understanding and explaining the mysterious, hidden sense of Scripture by an immediate illumination and motion of the Spirit." Order and office . --The sacerdotal order was originally the instrument by which the members of the Jewish theocracy were taught and governed in things spiritual. Teaching by act and teaching by word were alike their task. But during the time of the judges, the priesthood sank into a state of degeneracy, and the people were no longer affected by the acted lessons of the ceremonial service. They required less enigmatic warnings and exhortations, under these circumstances a new moral power was evoked the Prophetic Order. Samuel himself Levite of the family of Kohath, ( 1 Chronicles 6:28 ) and almost certainly a priest, was the instrument used at once for effecting a reform in the sacerdotal order ( 1 Chronicles 9:22 ) and for giving to the prophets a position of importance which they had never before held. Nevertheless it is not to be supposed that Samuel created the prophetic order as a new thing before unknown. The germs both of the prophetic and of the regal order are found in the law as given to the Israelites by Moses, ( 13:1 ; 18:20 ; 17:18 ) but they were not yet developed, because there was not yet the demand for them. Samuel took measures to make his work of restoration permanent as well as effective for the moment. For this purpose he instituted companies or colleges of prophets. One we find in his lifetime at Ramah, ( 1 Samuel 19:19 1 Samuel 19:20 ) others afterward at Bethel, ( 2 Kings 2:3 ) Jericho, ( 2 Kings 2:2 2 Kings 2:5 ) Gilgal; ( 2 Kings 4:38 ) and elsewhere. ( 2 Kings 6:1 ) Their constitution and object similar to those of theological colleges. Into them were gathered promising students, and here they were trained for the office which they were afterward destined to fulfill. So successful were these institutions that from the time of Samuel to the closing of the canon of the Old Testament there seems never to have been wanting due supply of men to keep up the line of official prophets. Their chief subject of study was, no doubt, the law and its interpretation; oral, as distinct from symbolical, teaching being thenceforward tacitly transferred from the priestly to the prophetic order. Subsidiary subjects of instruction were music and sacred poetry, both of which had been connected with prophecy from the time of Moses ( Exodus 15:20 ) and the judges. ( Judges 4:4 ; 5:1 ) But to belong to the prophetic order and to possess the prophetic gift are not convertible terms. Generally, the inspired prophet came from the college of prophets, and belonged to prophetic order; but this was not always the case. Thus Amos though called to the prophetic office did not belong to the prophetic order. ( Amos 7:14 ) The sixteen prophets whose books are in the canon have that place of honor because they were endowed with the prophetic gift us well as ordinarily (so far as we know) belonging to the prophetic order. Characteristics . --What then are the characteristics of the sixteen prophets thus called and commissioned and intrusted with the messages of God to his people?

1. They were the national poets of Judea.
2. They were annalists and historians. A great portion of Isaiah, of Jeremiah, of Daniel of Jonah, of Haggai, is direct or in direct history.
3. They were preachers of patriotism, --their patriotism being founded on the religious motive.
4. They were preachers of morals and of spiritual religion. The system of morals put forward by the prophets, if not higher or sterner or purer than that of the law, is more plainly declared, and with greater, because now more needed, vehemence of diction.
5. They were extraordinary but yet authorized exponents of the law.
6. They held a pastoral or quasi-pastoral office.
7. They were a political power in the state.
8. But the prophets were something more than national poets and annalists, preachers of patriotism moral teachers, exponents of the law, pastors and politicians. Their most essential characteristic is that they were instruments of revealing Gods will to man, as in other ways, so specially by predicting future events, and in particular foretelling the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ and the redemption effected by him. We have a series of prophecies which are so applicable to the person and earthly life of Jesus Christ as to be thereby shown to have been designed to apply to him. And if they were designed to apply to him, prophetical prediction is proved. Objections have, been urged. We notice only one, vis., vagueness. It has been said that the prophecies are too darkly and vaguely worded to be proved predictive by the events which they are alleged to foretell. But to this might be answered,
9. That God never forces men to believe, but that there is such a union of definiteness and vagueness in the prophecies as to enable those who are willing to discover the truth, while the willfully blind are not forcibly constrained to see it.
10. That, had the prophecies been couched in the form of direct declarations, their fulfillment would have thereby been rendered impossible or at least capable of frustration.
11. That the effect of prophecy would have been far less beneficial to believers, as being less adapted to keep them in a state of constant expectation.
12. That the Messiah of revelation could not be so clearly portrayed in his varied character as God and man, as prophet, priest and king, if he had been the mere teacher."
13. That the state of the prophets, at the time of receiving the divine revelation, was such as necessarily to make their predictions fragmentary figurative, and abstracted from the relations of time.
14. That some portions of the prophecies were intended to be of double application, and some portions to be understood only on their fulfillment, Comp. ( John 14:29 ; Ezekiel 36:33 )

[E] indicates this entry was also found in Easton's Bible Dictionary
[J] indicates this entry was also found in Jack Van Impe's Prophecy Dictionary
Bibliography Information

Smith, William, Dr. "Entry for 'Prophet'". "Smith's Bible Dictionary". . 1901.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

information for you young preachers, back in the day, we just had our Bibles (Scofield, Dake, Thompson Chain, and Dixon), concordances, and Bible Dictionaries. We also had the Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course which was a two volume edition of mimeographed pages. Volume 1 contained lessons on some Old Testament books like Genesis, Exodus, Ester Ruth and Hosea plus 26 lessons on The Tabernacle. These were by Mrs. E. Rohn. This volume also contained 37 lessons on church history by Myrl Nutting. These lessons also contained information on Daniel's image with the head of gold on down to the feet of iron and clay and spoke of Mussolin's ventures into Ethiopia (1935-1936) and speaks of "The Spanish Civil War now raging in Spain (January 1939). Volume 2 of that course was called "Rightly Dividing the Word" by John H. Dearing and contains "100 Bible Subjects" and "Several Complete N.T. Books."

It is my understanding that at one time this was part of the required reading for someone who wanted to obtain license with the UPC but did not have a Bible School education.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

My copy of this course is in two volumes of loose leaf pages that I obtained in 1956.

A newer version is called the First Edition and was copyrighted in 1966 by E. Rohn and shows contributors as E. Rohn, Mrs. E. Rohn, Myrl Nutting, John Dearing, and Ruby Martin with Editors: David K. Bernard, Johnny Celey and then a Revised Edition copy righted in 2001 Word Aflame Press Hazelwood, MO 63042-2299. I have a pdf copy but it is too large to attach to a post here. I can furnish it to anyone who will contact me and give me an email address where they can receive a large pdf as an attachment.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Then you are not reading the same bible I am
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

As I said we don't know the meaning of the gifts. I will take the bible definition. Like I said those that rebuke, and warn may also be word of wisdom, or word of Knowledge.

Bottom line when we lift up a person and call them a prophet, pastor, apostle, etc we are lifting up man instead of the gift, and taking the focus off of God.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Thank you Sam
I too have the Pentecostal Bible study course. And it is true at one time it was equired reading, along with the book United We Stand I can't remmember it seems there was one other book besides the bible, which had to have been read thru, to obtain your local license. I carried local for four years, as I could preach out with that, I did not get my general till we went to start a Home Missions church, as by UPCI standards one could not pastor or marry or baptize, unless he/she had General license. As I was never out for the title (maybe a little at first, just that I was a minister) I never did get ordained by UPCI although I had completed everything needed. I carried General license for six years. At such time let them go back.

To Ace, Stephenroehm, and Jeffery you can put all the examples you want about what a prophet did or said in OT or NT but as Sam has shown, what we think when we see the word prophet is not what was intened when the writter used the word. From my point of view a prophet would be nothing more than what we call a preacher in many congregations.

I don't have all the answers but I do have more than what most commonly accept as I have been exposed to more of the gifts of the spirit in the last three years than I did in 40+ years in UPCI. So I have made a point to study this in more detail.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

well jonah was a prophet and he brought words of condemnation to ninevah.
the words he spoke was to rebuke the city into repentance or they surely would face the comming judgement.

also david had a prophet he confided in, but they also reffered to david as a prophet.

i believe i am going to state that i was wrong on my interpretation of a prophet and agree with Godsdrummer.

i dont believe we have prophets in the Nt.exspecially the same type of prophets that was used in the old testament. though one can interpret a man who has gifts of the Spirit to be as one, i believe we have gifts of prophecy, but not prophets, so i dont think we have a 5 fold ministry

hebrews 11:1-2
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Ace

Line upon line, precept upon precept, I found I don't know half what I thought I knew in my younger years, but God gives line upon line etc. I have learned I hold my base understanding but never close my eyes that I might not understand or have all understanding of some things. sometimes it is hard to not be tossed by every wind of doctrine but on the same hand we must study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word.

I truly beleive that Paul was speaking of gift, of the spirit in Ephesians 4, not offices of authority.

Decons, Elders, and Bishops were chosen (ordained) by the church, to take care of the day to day administrative functions of the body of christ. God would work through the gifts in the assembly and individualy, in a manor that no one person could be lifted up above another in a position of spiritual leadership. As God held this for himself.

Hence Paul did not instruct one to become a prophet, rather to seek prophecy one of the several gifts of the spirit.

Just my thoughts.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

It concerns me that you are not willing to accept Biblical examples to broaden your knowledge. I am absolutely not saying that I know more than anyone else here, because if I did, I would instantly make myself a fool. Nor will I toss around the amount of experience I have in church or the time I have spent studying the Word as a way to prove my point, as it is irrelevant. God chooses to give wisdom to those who seek it, regardless of age or position or title. But one thing I do know is that as soon as we stop allowing ourselves to be open-minded to knowledge and revelation and as soon as we stop seeking those things with our whole hearts, we stop growing. The only "expert" on the Word of God is God.

The definitions of the words as well as the way those words were used in context in the Bible must agree, otherwise it's simply our understanding that is in err. How can the Bible inspire faith if it doesn't agree with itself? Could it be that prophecy is the gift that the LORD gives to His body and that one who possesses that gift is referred to as a prophet? Not necessarily as an "office of authority", but as a way to identify who possesses the gift? I am thinking of this in the same sense that a person who has the gift of athleticism to play the sport of basketball would be called a basketball player.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

:grampa

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

How does this definition of NT prophet sound as far as "forthtelling" or speaking for "someone else"?
As the Bible is given to man to discover Jesus Christ, a prophet is one (as the apostles) that understands Jesus' complete fulfilment of every prophetic utterance in the OT and expounds to believers and unbelievers alike the Kingdom of God.

You might say, "Well, duh", but we have all heard people that prophesy about some incredible stuff...
"9/11 an inside job", "your wife will have blond hair", etc.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

You worded that carefully. I would agree that conviction brings shame before it brings hope, and that shame is a normal human emotion.

However, this idea of rebuking sinners in the church openly to embarrass them is disgusting and not at all in the flow or stream of the teachings of Jesus.

Shame doesn't lead us to repentance. Grace does. Shame humiliates us, grace shows us a way out.

In the New Testament, Paul's writing on the subject of spiritual gifts, tongues and prophecy sandwich 1 Corinthians 13 (chapters 12 and 14). All spiritual gifts and leadership are bathed in this kind of love.

Jesus did come to make bad people good, but to make dead people live. If the Holy Spirit wishes to reveal the sin in a person's heart, the Spirit is doing so in love, not humiliation. The Spirit knows how to humble us without humiliating us. Often times these public shows of "calling out" are nothing more than stroking the ego of the so-called prophet. It's disgusting religiosity.

The only time someone was "called out" in the New Testament in front of the entire community was when the man had already called himself out, was involved in incest and continually boasted about this sexual relationship to the congregation. This was a unique situation. I'm troubled when people go to this situation as normalcy for Church Leadership. We don't find the heart of a matter on exceptional issues.

The woman was more taken aback because she perceived him to be a prophet. The miracle vindicated His claim to be the I AM. This is why she was excited. Her excitement did not come from humiliation. It came from the promise of eternal life and hope.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

What do we do with those in the Early Church that were prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, elders (pastors)?

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Hmm
Sorry you seem to misunderstand what I am trying to get accross, I accepted what I was told were bible examples of those things your refering to for too many years without thinking for myself. When I began to think for myself and ask God to show me as apposed to what man told me is when I began to see things in a different light. Trust me I did not come to these ideas over night. And I sounded many thoughts over the years off of minister friends.

As for tossing around the amount of experiance, again you miss the point, I know I have a hard time getting what I am thinking accross into words but this is realy getting bad LOL

I don't have all the answers but I do have more than what most commonly accept as I have been exposed to more of the gifts of the spirit in the last three years than I did in 40+ years in UPCI. So I have made a point to study this in more detail.

I assume this is the statement refered to, or maybe it was the other one where is tell Sam of the time in minsitry neither being made to prove a point, But there must be something that experiance brings to the table.

You think I am not open minded? I would not have the ideas I have if not open minded. The difference is I quit beleiving everything said by some one claiming to be the voice of God. And got into the word in prayer.

I can agree with underlined statement, I do, if you can agree with the bible definition of a prophet as opposed to mans definition.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Again the use of title prophet has been misrepresented as only one that fortels future events. We are too quick to take the first definition of something as a blanket meaning. To prophecy also means to speak under insparation. Like I said much like our present day preacher.

By the way I am and never intend to come accross as knowing it all but to simply put forth different opinions to get others to check what they have always been told. My views do and can change.

Oh by the way, my referance to experiance? That is one to show how long I was in a rut of not listening to God but accepting what was told me from good meaning preachers etc. As for that I further do not feel any of my views one way or the other are salvational.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

If I recall none with the exeption of Paul refered to themselves as .... and Paul only refered in the way to say he was sent to the Gentiles. As apostle "means one that is sent" I futher see them not as offices as spiritual gifts that worked with in the body. With the exception of Bishops, elders, and decons, and those were ordained within the body to fulfill administrative fuctions as the body grew.

But that is just my opinion.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Actually there are multiple passages references other apostles and prophets, Paul talks about evangelists, and the whole of Eph 4:11 wholly addresses this as being God's "gift to the Church."

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

can you find a nt passage describing the office of the prophet, like it does for elders, deacons and bishops?

i would also refer you back to hebrews 11:1-2
after looking at this i dont agree with our stance on a 5 fold ministry

but yes we have evangelist, like phillip, we had elders like steven, and we had apostles, which is translated as being sent, or messenger

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

I can't find anything regarding installing apostles or prophets. But we know they existed even after the 12 just by reference throughout the NT.

Jesus is our High Priest, our Great Shepherd... please explain why you disregard Eph 4 because of Heb 11:1-2.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

(Words of Christ) Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(Paul's commandment to Timothy, a leader in the church) 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

What is your understanding of these scriptures? Are they still exceptions? Or do they agree in some way with what you are saying? I think, if we continue with this discussion, we can find that they agree.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

@Stephen The context of 1 Timothy 5:

Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,[e] especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”[f]

19 Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.
I solemnly command you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the holy angels to obey these instructions without taking sides or showing favoritism to anyone.

22 Never be in a hurry about appointing a church leader.[g] Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

23 Don’t drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.

24 Remember, the sins of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins will not be revealed until later. 25 In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light.

Paul's words mean something specific to the audience here. It sounds like there is much gossip about alleged sins of an elder. Paul is trying to teach them to handle this in a Gospel way.

The Scripture in Matthew says "if a brother sins against you." Instead of being upset, gossiping, the brother is instructed to go to the other brother and let him know. If the situation does not get resolved, he should bring other brothers or elders together in the matter.

Regarding 1 Tim 5:20: Timothy is told there are times are when not only an elder should be rebuked, but times when he should be rebuked publicly.

This is a good reminder that leaders who fall into a life of sin, or evil wrong-doing should be accountable to the people, and not just tucked under the carpet with a sudden pastoral departure. The people should see with leaders what sin is, how vulnerable we all are, and that there's no place for a lifestyle of sin with those who desire to lead the Church.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Now, THIS is a discussion. I will post in a while, but it may be tomorrow as I'm at work and have church tomorrow. I have a lot of responding to do. Keep it up, guys! Iron sharpening Iron.

Sorry that I get hung up on word usage so much. I pay VERY close attention to the words people use to send the messages they do, and sometimes it gets in the way. I apologize.

Re: The Role of a New Testament Prophet
 

Where I think some struggle (with elders that fall into sin bringing it to the congregation), is choosing which sins are worthy? Sexual indiscretions? Stealing office paper? Feeling hate toward a congregant? Thinking a lustful thought? Gossiping about someone? Which one is worthy of being brought to the congregation?

Also, the word "rebuke" tends to draw sharp ideas in our head. Like a man being pummeled in front of the crowd. Like a stoning with words and scripture. That's not really what I think is in mind here with "rebuke."