What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

A good discussion about the Gospel, the Church, being a believer, etc...

The answer at the 13-minute mark is strong. What does it mean to follow Jesus?

http://www.archive.org/details/121De...effVanderstelt

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

That's the guy from the Crowded House!

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I found something that Paul wrote interesting....

Romans 10:8-13
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Interesting eh?

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

What's the rub? Is this in response to something in the video? Or answering the thread title question?

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Some interesting excerpts regarding the Gospel community and youth:

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

The biggest emphasis on this clip is MAKING DISCIPLES. Not planting churches, but creating disciples and then becoming churches. Not having church, but making disciples. Not having event-centered activities, but relationship-centered discipleship.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

:thumbsup :thumbsup

"Go ye therefore, and teach (mathēteuō intransitively to become a pupil; transitively to disciple, that is, enroll as scholar) all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I like your tag line.

Mathetes, Matheteuo. Disciple making.

"Mathetes, when used in the context of following Jesus suggests that the learning is expressed in outward behaviour. The learning is not merely intellectual, yet begins with the intellect and then is demonstrated in a person’s life. The word "mathete" was used in Classical Greek by the philosophers meaning an apprentices. In Jewish culture "mathete" was used in a teacher pupil relationship. The Rabbi would teach the student the Law of God.

Mathete had a much more intimate meaning to Jesus than it did to Pharisees, who also had Mathetes. For Jesus it was multiplication -- and he expected the Body to do the discipling, starting with the 12. We are discipling others to make disciples of Jesus. It's a beautiful thing.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Excellent!!!!! :thumbsup :thumbsup

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Just something the thread title reminded me of. Not a bad video though.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

It was a good discussion for anyone that took the time to listen in.

Sounds like teaching that you'd find agreeable as well, Aquila.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I was sharing this with someone yesterday and they said, "I like that! We are working for Jesus." :thumbsup

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

That's interesting. I never would have emphasized the "working" relationship, but that's an interesting perspective. We are apprentices who are bringing other apprentices alongside of us -- sharing life and discipling them in this way. Modeling the Gospel. Using everyday life as an opportunity to point back to the Gospel, to Jesus.

Disciples making disciples.
Apprentices making apprentices.

I see it less as working for, and more of learning from. But that's just my take. Glad it inspired someone else :)

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I think that an "apprentice" both learns and works. "Labour" for want of a better word.

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy teaching/discipling, by their example, on what it means to labour for the Kingdom of God.

"For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God." I Thessalonians 2:9

Paul shows that his convert, Epaphras, has followed their example and laboured in prayer.

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." Colossians 4:12

I think there is much labour/work involved in the Kingdom of God. Everything we do, we are doing for Jesus Christ. So, I don't think it's too far off the mark to call us "apprentices" for Jesus. We are ever learning.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Interesting points.

If discipling means "working for" though, then whomever I disciple, are they "working for" me? See the tension/conflict?

Col 4:
These are the only Jews[c] among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me. 12 Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.

To be sure, we are co-laborers with Jesus. Meaning we are about the Father's business. But is discipleship itself a thing of labor? The verse above, by the way, is not really a discipleship context. It's in the middle of a typical Roman greeting in a letter, and it basically says Epaphras labors/wrestles/interceded in prayer.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I don't think there would be any conflict.

Peter demonstrated that when Cornelius met him, fell at his feet and worshiped him. Peter told him to stand up, "I myself am also a man." It simply points to the fact, at all times, they knew who they were serving and laboring for - Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.

When Paul uses the term "fellow-workers", in Colossians 4:11, it is defined as a "co-laborer/companion in labor". He is projecting the same frame of mind as Peter.

I think anytime we teach someone anything, we stand back and watch them work/labor to see how they fair with the understanding we have given them.

Colossians 4 says that Epaphras is a servant of Christ and wrestles/labors in prayer. Would we call that a labor of love? To me, it shows that someone taught Epaphras how to labor for and in the Kingdom.

So, yes, I think that discipleship is a thing of labor. Isn't that what we do when we teach a child to read, write or ride a bike, etc.? We stand back and watch them use that intellect. It is a labor on our part and theirs as well, IMO. I've taught younger people how to teach a Sunday School class, how to produce artwork, how to spend and save money, etc. I do consider that labor, although not tiring labor. At least not always. LOL!

Paul calls himself a "prisoner" of Christ.

"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,"
(Ephesians 3:1)

And he wants us to remember those bonds - "Remember my bonds." (Colossians 4:18)

A willing prisoner. That is a work and labor of love, IMO.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

We may be getting at two separate ideas here. At least that may be the case.

Does Discipleship require labor? Yes. Does Peter/Cornelius and the Col references above have discipleship in view? I don't think that's clear. Discipleship is more than teaching... though it's definitely included. The emphasis is more on HOW we are teaching and "making disciples." That the one being discipled should understand they are co-laborers with Christ is the goal of discipling. It's one of those truths passed on in a relational way. But is it discipleship itself?

Col 4, the greeting doesn't really seem to feed into the topic. He's referring to a guy that intercedes for others. The prisoner references that Paul uses as analogy all point us to his emphasis on what he feels is a responsibility, and that tells us how convinced he is about his call! (A great point about The Call similar to Jesus' teaching about the man who is unworthy who puts his hand to the plow and looks back).

Discipleship involves labor, but I'm not sure labor is discipleship :) (I guess that's my summary). We are making disciples, effectively fellow laborers for Christ, but our discipleship process is a living and relational apprenticeship intimately in other's lives in the most primary of senses.

You have to love dialogues like this where after while we scratch our heads wondering if we are disagreeing or just coming at something differently.

Thanks for sharing.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Well, it appears to me that we are really agreeing. At least I am agreeing with you. ;)

I don't think that labor is only discipleship, but I don't think we can deny labor is not an element also.

I see Peter, not unlike ourselves, on his way to Cornelius' house knowing that he must try to build a strong foundation in this group's lives that can stand the test of time and weather the storms that will surely come against their lives. As it does to us all. That is, primarily, our objective when we say we are winning the lost.

He will want to teach/disciple Cornelius and his household on the beauty, strength and of the prophecies given about Jesus Christ in the Law and Prophets. That would be the foundation. Then by example, he must teach them how to live and use this truth properly. To me, discipleship is a labor of love.

They will then be fellowworkers/co-labours in the Kingdom of God. And if we are admonished to go and "teach/disciple" all nations, it starts and continues an ever going cycle - teach - send - teach - send - "pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest." (Luke 10:2)

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Corinthians 6:1 Do something with it.

If we are admonished to always "disciple" and we are "workers together", what work are we doing? What are we laboring to do? Disciple.

Just my thoughts.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

So, to take a turn on our discussion: what does discipleship look like?

Some churches create "Discipleship Courses" where an instructor (pastor) sits behind a lecturn and teaches. Is this discipleship?

How do we know if we are discipling others?

How do we know if we are disciples? :)

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Well, I'm sure there are others more capable of answering you than I am and I'm surprised you haven't had more involved on this interesting thread.

I think open discussion is imperative. It needs to be a give and take, IMO. If you have a group that it too large, then you need to divide that up to make room. People want and need to speak and ask questions. Just filtering a speaker is not going to do the trick. That doesn't mean that I don't think there are times that we need to sit down and listen. And I believe that the five-fold ministry is an integral part of discipleship too.

If people are progressing in a fruitful way in their personal life and are reaching out to others, that is when you know your discipling is working, IMO.

How do we know if we are disciples? Isn't that interesting how a new convert will come in and dash all of your hopes of feeling you have arrived? LOL! They have a way of keeping you humble and knowing that you DO NOT know everything. I can be in a leadership position fully aware that I have much more to learn. That makes me a disciple.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

You said a lot of good stuff here but since I'm in a hurry, I only have a sec to comment on the bolded.

It seems, at least this part, indicates you feel discipleship is a transference of knowledge?

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Yes, for the most part, remember what you posted?

I totally agree with this! :thumbsup

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

At the risk of arguing with myself then :) ....

There's something to be said for the role of the Spirit in Discipleship, helping in that process of people shape their heart until it is fully conformed to the Gospel and the Cross.

Intellectual information seems to miss it. Jesus, the Great Rabbi, rarely just disseminated info. Even with his own disciples. He used parables... which maybe was his way of whetting the appetites of the heart to discover, pursue and become curious about the ways of the Kingdom. He could have easily just answered all their questions and gave them lectures. Instead, he asked them to follow him, walk with him, he shared life with them, broke bread with them, wept and prayed, rejoiced and celebrated with them, he used real life opportunities to show the Kingdom -- whether they missed it or were staring at it. His discipleship seemed less about intellect and more about community.

Just my thoughts off the top of my head.... pondering the subject today.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Maybe our thread title should be Discipleship? I figured the lack of responses were because it was a video link. Few of us watch those things when posted (unless they are 10-second clips). I don't blame anyone. So to get discussion on this, it's best to bullet-point thoughts almost.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Good thoughts! I agree that the Spirit has a role in discipleship. After all, it wouldn't be called the "Spirit of Truth". And it probably picks up where intellectual information can seem to miss it.

So, there you go, we are an "apprentice" with Christ Jesus. :thumbsup LOL!

You know what I think about when I think of "apprentice"? That story about Johnny Tremain. LOL! He was an apprentice in a silvershop and dreamed of having his own shop one day. Someone taught him, but he knew he would have to, someday, go out on his own and use that teaching.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Contact Admin. They will change the title for you.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

What do you think of Jesus' model for discipleship? With regard to transferring knowledge?

Definitely believe being a disciple means being an apprentice of Jesus. When we are "making disciples" (Mt 28:19) we essentially have apprentice-type relationships. But instead of a tutorial on the Kingdom, we have a great task of helping, with the guidance of the Spirit, to turn people's hearts toward the Gospel. I believe discipleship begins with unbelievers... at least in the sense of the fact they are curious, then told to "come and see"... it's a process and continues to be a process. The goal of disciple making is that they make disciples too. Not a task for clergy, elders, etc.. a mission of the entire church.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Trying to make them think? That's a good teacher. :thumbsup

Can't say much else than this! Good post! I agree, it is the mission of the entire church. If we don't trust others in our midst to disciple, then we need to look at ourselves as teachers and see how we have failed.

Of course, that doesn't mean we won't have some who want to turn the ship in their direction, i.e., Diotrephes, who wanted to have the preeminence. (3 John 1:9)

There are going to be some people like that in our midst. His preeminence example would also be a discipleship teaching/learning moment for others.

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

This is where the role of the elders helps congregations... the elders and Mt 18 principle. There are ways a healthy community can prevent false teaching from happening. Staying in community and mutually submitted is one of those. That said, things can still happen and go wrong, and we trust in the Spirit to help us through what are sometimes very difficult issues.

Enjoying the discussion...

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

I agree!!! :thumbsup

Re: What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)
 

Hmmmm... let's start an argument on this thread. PO and Max are agreeing. Is today a full moon?