If there were no heaven....
 

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would ywe live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

If there was no heaven, of course, there would be no hell since the two are in equilibrium to each other.

If there were no heaven:

There would be no God, thus no creator.

If no creator, there would be nothing...not even an earth.

If there were no God, no heaven, no creator, no earth...

there would be no life.

If there was no life, most of you all would miss the re-runs of Sopranos and American Idol. Neither would you learn what the NFL will do with Bret Farve. NOW THAT IS REALLY BAD.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Well, having left the church and opened my mind to all sorts of thoughts, I have had thoughts like these.

Bottom line: I live the way I live because I love the people I am with. I feel I love God, but I am not really sure what that means anyway.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I cannot say that I would be where I am now because I know that much of the journey God has taken me on was spent living out of fear. So fear helped get me where I am. But I have moved beyond that and the life I live now is because of my relationship with God.

I live what I love and love what I live.

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I would love to think hell as it is taught is just something people thought up.

I loved living the way I did, until one day I realized all the pain and heartache it caused myself, my family and others. I felt that to continue to live that way would be, for me, to live selfishly, knowing that modesty and many of the other things I was taught could be lived better in another way, especially since we were all in agreement in my household. And so, I left to live my life in what I felt was a better, more compassionate way. I am much happier for it. Sometimes, I yearn for the old stuff but the sickness I feel about all the judgmentalism, condemnation and guilt put on people makes me stay here and live free and demonstrate freedom for others who might actually criticize me while I do it. But I feel clean and good before God. :)

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

The search for the "Unknown God" continues...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I love it! Thank you!

God is. Jesus is His anointed one, because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.

As Job once said, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." (Job 13:15, KJV)

Then the question remains, "Are we believers, who seek after Christ until He stops providing for our wants and needs, are we followers of Him until the the price gets a little high and persecution comes knocking at our door, or are we disciples who will give that last measure of love for the sake of His testament?"

I love this:
Lord Jesus, I am going to obey You and love You and serve You, and do what You want me to do as long as I live, even if I go to hell at the end of the road, simply because You are worthy to be loved, obeyed and served. And, I am not trying to make a deal with You.

It is the difference between trying to get something out of God (humanism), rather than allowing God to get something out of me (consecrated life). The prime product of my relationship with God is solely for His glory. The byproduct of that relationship is the blessing(s) I receive in return. But, what if I should not receive any blessings in this life, like so many of the early Christan martyrs? Have I then been cheated out of my reward by God? No! For I am not the one who is worthy.

God does not exist for my happiness and well being, but rather it is I who exist for God's own good pleasure and purpose.

Does anyone see the difference?

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Could you elucidate on your meaning here?

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Indeed. I used to speed and race the engine on my car. And then I discovered a law at work. A law that says these things cost and take from me. Whether in tickets or in repairs or complete replacement of vehicles there is a law that I am fighting against and I always lose.

The same goes for every other law of God. It is no more... do it this way or you'll be punished... but it is an understanding that living one way only continues to bring destruction and loss into my life. Living God's way only brings peace into my life and steers me away from the pitfalls of my fallen nature that only desires to take from me.

As HaShaliach said... Does anyone see the difference.

Yes... there is a vast difference.

He was my judge.

He is now my redeemer.

Not only because he paid the price on calvary. But also because he redeems me from my own fallen state. Thank you Lord for making me free from a self serving and yet self destructive way and teaching me a way higher than I could have known on my own.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Well Lennon asked a similar question didn't he?

Now I know OA was just "musing" but if I imagine no heaven, hell etc, than I also bring into question whether Jesus loves me or died for me. I know it's true because He declares it so, not because I have a warm emotional attachment to Jesus.

Would i give my life for Jesus if there were no afterlife to enjoy his presence in? That is a most difficult question, because it changes the meaning of the cross as well... "Should not perish but have everlasting life"

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Thanks. I saw the correlation with the song but I wasn't real sure what you were stating with your words.

How would you feel if Jesus' death on the cross did just that... that we "should not perish but have everlasting life"? Meaning... if we lived our life according to God's will and way then we would live forever with God. But if we didn't we would not experience everlasting life and would simply die and there would be nothing else.

If I am prying... please disregard my question. I am certainly not meaning to. As for myself. I still find that valuable. Living eternally versus living this life isn't a big plus that I can comprehend. But to live eternally with God is a major plus.

Although, as I have said before in this thread, life experience has shown me that, no matter what, this is just the best life. God, as it turns out, is exceedingly wise and I love to learn and follow His ways.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Well yes. I agree. I have serious doubts about taking the imagery of everlasting fire and utter darkness literally anyway. At least at the same time... It seems senseless. I think there must be symbolism involved with that language. Still yet, being separated from Jesus "forever" would be the greatest travesty known to mankind.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I don't agree with the fire and brimstone concept of hell, and I don't agree with the literal gates of pearl and streets of gold concept of heaven. So I can't think I'd change the way I lived if the promises of heaven and hell didn't exist. I'd be happy living the way I do even if I didn't believe in God, much less heaven and hell.

D4T, there was a time that I preached and lived standards of modesty and holiness. I thought those were absolutely right, and judged others by them. I don't follow some of those outward standards now, but it wasn't because I had the opportunity to circumvent them. I was at the store, and someone from my former church ripped into a clerk. The clerk was near tears; she had only been doing her job. When I stepped up to the counter, she glanced at me and pulled away with fear and hurt in her eyes, thinking I'd have the same nasty attitude that she'd just been subject to and had probably seen many times before.

If what I wear hurts my ability to reach out to people who are lost or hurting, even if it's considered "holy" and "modest" in an ultra-conservative environment, is it pleasing to God? After a lot of prayer, discussion, and study, I decided that in my situation it wasn't.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Well said, Steve!

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Yes. The answer is "Yes". I'd want to live my life for God even if there was no heaven to gain or hell to shun. Well, at least thats what my answer should be. The blessings he has bestowed on us down thru the years should be enough to cause us love Him even if there is no afterlife. His dying on the cross to redeem us should be enough to warrant our undying love for Him. So, yes, I'd serve Him anyway. Well, at least thats what my answer should be.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I think we all would like to think so. But because we are believers we can't really answer the question can we?

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Of course I would not be a Christian if there were no Heaven or Hell. I dont believe anyone would. Paul said if there were no eternal life we are of all men most miserable.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I don't think that is what is being said in that scripture. Jesus died to give us life... and that more abundantly.

What God is to us IN THIS LIFE is a blessing. It brings peace to THIS LIFE. It brings hope TO THIS LIFE. To know that God brought these things to THIS LIFE and yet didn't provide for an eternal dose of it would still leave us with the hope and the peace that God loved us and cared for us. Perhaps an eternal existence was not possible for us... he still gave us a better way to live and a better life.

But the scripture is still there. And taken in it's context it does, indeed, appear to be talking about whether there is or is not an afterlife. \

The term that was translated "most miserable" could also be interpreted as "to be pitied". I wonder if that might have been a better translation. It certainly fits.

But... taking it as it is written lets look at the context.

The chapter is talking about Jesus having risen from the dead and that if there is no resurrection from the dead then Christ is not raised and if Christ is not raised then the apostles have, then, given a false witness for God.

If Christ be not risen then our preaching is vain... your faith is vain. In a nutshell...

People were saying that there is no resurrection. Paul is telling them that our entire salvation pivots on Jesus raising from the dead. Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection. If there is no resurrection then Christ did not raise from the dead and if Christ did not raise from the dead then our preaching is in vain... your faith is in vain... the whole thing is a lie.

So he isn't saying that without a hope of eternity we are miserable. He is saying that the entire hope of our salvation rests upon the concept of resurrection and if there is no resurrection then there is no resurrected Christ and if there is no resurrected Christ then we have no hope and are miserable (or even so... to be pitied)

This scripture is way too often taken out of it's context in my opinion.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

It's quite the conundrum isn't it? :)

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Great post.

Sometimes I put on Korous Cologne. Do you know why? My wife likes it.
Sometimes I wear certain clothes. Why? Because my wife likes it.
There are certain things I never do... or never say... or never wear... Do you know why? My wife doesn't like it.

I don't live my life by... will she divorce me if I do this or that (Equal to will this send me to hell etc).

I live my life by... I think she would like that.

The same with God. I don't live my life by what will send me to hell or what won't. I live my life by doing what I do and saying what I say with a smile and thinking... I think He would like this. I think He would be pleased with that.

It is such a nicer life isn't it? :)

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Wonderful! You watched the video too!

I review it every few months just to glean a little more from it's basic doctrines on how my attitude toward Christ and my fellow man should be expressed in my life.

The Revival Hymn

Here is another good video: Wake Up

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Very well said, D4T.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I think I'd be mad! I'd feel seriously gyped! Not now, but once upon a time. Everything I did back then was to keep out of hell and try to be good enough to make it to heaven. It would be irritating to think that I tortured myself for no purpose!

Of course, now I don't think of myself as "following" him per se. I try to do what's right, I try to love those around me, and if God tries to talk to me, I try to listen.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Well, maybe it's not "yes" in the conventional sense. And yet, it doesn't necessarily have to be "no" either. Sometimes, you have to make your own way and find your own definitions.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Sometimes, if you figure out that some things you believe aren't true. you find there is no reason to continue with the misery. So, you change and you get happier.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Thanks for sharing.

I've seen The Revival Hymn before but, as you have said, it bears repeating from time to time.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Paul said in the same chapter if there is no resurrection......eternal life let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

Jesus did not present himself as some self help teacher to give you a good life in this world tho you may certainly have one because he is good.

Jesus said you must hate your life in this world or you cannot be his disciple.

12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. John 12:25-26

Jesus is eternal life. The topic on the thread is just speculation and has no connection to the teachings of Jesus since he presents nothing of the sort.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Didn't St Paul talk about this once-- saying that if we were following made up stories then we would be "most miserable" of all men.

That misery would stem from the fact that life would not have any meaning, any purpose at all.

So I probably would live for today, because tomorrow we die and that would be it-- if there were no heaven and no hell.


Is Christian living a good way to live one's life? Sure! It's a great way.

However, there are the bad times, times of testing, times of persecution. If I did not have a hope of His Promise, made real by the faith that He lived, died and rose again for me, why would I live righteously?

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Not sure, but I think you are answering a different question from the one he asked, which was what if the Bible didn't promise a heaven or a hell (and they didn't exist). No reason to feel gypped. (Unless, of course, there were people who told you about them! People other than the writers of the Bible, I mean. ;))

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

I've already touched on that verse when it was mentioned earlier.

Here is what i posted earlier...

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Thats it. I've had enough. I don't even know why I bother. But no more. You people are hopeless. Everyone of you. I've tried and I've tried, but, its time to wipe my hands clean and shake the dust of my shoes.

And while I'm at it, let me say this then so long......


































































































...I'm kidding. Love all my AFF friends!

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Sounds like an old Lanny Wolfe song.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Ahhh...I guess in that case I would probably have never gotten interested. I mean that's what drew me in, in the first place. The hope that there would some day be something better than this life. (mine was pretty awful at the time). Of course, in my case, after 7 or 8 years of trying to be perfect enough to attain it and failing, I figured it would be much better to work on this life instead.

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

Paraphrasing what Paul said - "If there were no Heaven, why bother?"

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

There is so much to see and do in this life. If there were no heaven, it would make it that much more important to live life here to the fullest.

"If there were no Heaven, why not bother with this life more?"

Re: If there were no heaven....
 

OA, you can't fool anybody for a minute!!