Education Reformers Needed
 

What's the solution here?

Quality Christian higher education is important. If we cease investing in teachers and learners, we regress and fail to move forward. Centers of incestuous academia, where students are really just converts being told what to believe doesn't fit the mold of what college is all about. The importance of students being grounded in theology that has good hindsight and inspired forward-sight is critical.

So here's the rub. Many bible students eventually become pastors. These young singles and married people leave school to serve the mission of God in a unique way, and do so with sometimes as much as $50,000 in debt (if they've obtained a Th.M, MDiv, etc).

Serving God's people is not a vocation. It's not a career. It's a unique call. It's not about "cashing in" on the degree in terms of money, but in terms of people. Colleges that are affordable have under-qualified instructors, colleges with the best-of-the-best in professors tend to be over-priced.

In fact, many major theological seminaries have a profit-seeking business office like any other school. They tax you for every dollar. The book prices are off the charts.

So what's the solution to this?

I write this post to those who already acknowledge and appreciate ministers who understand education to be a piece of the preparation that goes into it.

Thoughts? Should churches have regular giving to local schools and students submit to being worthy of that church's scholarship? Should scholarships be more readily available (they are bleak for theology students generally)? Should we just continue on as we do?

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Whats wrong with the Elders of the Church teaching new converts? Why should they have to pay to get a "Christian Education"? What is the role of the Pastors and Teachers? What is the SCRIPTURAL answer to helping the new convert to grow?

It is most certainly NOT Bible to send them off to a school somewhere. The Church is a place to learn. Matter of fact it is THE place to learn. If a Pastor is not able to do this he is not a New Testament Pastor.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

You were one of the posters I thought when writing about. We've had separate threads about the importance of learning. That's not really the intent of my post.

The role of pastors and teachers is to teach. I'm not talking about new converts.

You, sir, are using the Word in a wrong way to suit your motive to think the scriptures give us rules in this area. You are an example of why "Christian education" is important! :santathumb

We are talking about those who continue to train teachers -- and even scholars, theologians for generations to come.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I do think there is a real need for true accredited Christian schools (independent of a specific church building since almost none are capable of running one) and colleges -that teach real working degrees in addition to theological ones.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I'm referring specifically to theological schools that those preparing for a life of service in the ministry would attend. But what you are saying would definitely be supported at such schools.

There are several out there (private Christian universities that offer quality liberal arts degrees)... do you think they are lacking right now?

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Extremely so. Any good Christian college should offer things such as computer programming, drafting, nursing, accounting, elementary education, etc. The list goes on. In fact we need some real degrees that all these young ladies can receive who are currently going for the sole purpose of finding that soon-to-be-pastor husband.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Actually, many women attend seminary so they too can serve churches. But you may be referring to the UPCI bubble?

Catholic schools have are ahead of the game here. Places like Notre Dame have wonderful programs. The subjects you mentioned seem more like career/trade schools -- which are not usually 4-year degrees.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I was probably referring to the UPC (and AoG) bubble. After those two I have no idea about other denominations.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

And who better to train the Teachers than other Teachers in the Church? Its your thread so you obviously dont have to hear what Im saying but....where is your New Testament example for such things as an accredited college?

Where did any New Testament Teacher ask for money to teach anyone the deep things of God?

Lets start right there. If I am wrong produce one example in the New Testament where someone required money to teach the things of Jesus.

Jesus said "Freely you have received freely give".

If one wants to be trained in Gods word why not use Jesus and the Apostles as our guide?

If they had special schools where men trained others for an occupation then what you are wanting is valid.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

When I think about some of the classes and some of the instructors when I attended bible school, it's obvious that the job isn't getting done. They were doing their best, no doubt, but it's SO far behind the "Dallas Theological Seminary" types.....well, they're not in the same galaxy.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Are you kidding? Is this what people think is sound Bible teaching? Dallas Theological Seminary? They teach false doctrine on every foundation issue. They paid thousands of dollars to learn false Protestant/Evangelical doctrine.

Then they charge others to teach them the same heresies.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

For the sake of argument, sure they are all false teachers, teaching false doctrines on their way to a burning hell...that wasn't the issue though. The issue was how well they teach not what doctrines they teach

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Did you attend Dallas Theiological Seminary?

Even the top Ivy League schools have famous profs leading classes that are not gifted in teaching. Even worse, signing up under a big name at Stanford for example no where means that he will
"visit" the classroom more than 1 or two times a semester.

Oneness are far behind in that they have no full 4 year colleges that also have Masters and Doctoral programs. AOG has several schools in Springfield but I don't know if any doctoral degrees are offered.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

False teachers
We also have non false teachers that have poor teaching skills.
We have poor student study habits
We have students limited in cognitive abilities in the areas of synthesis and knowledge.

Within many major universities, some colleges are much better than others when it comes to delivering significant graduates.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I would not want to pay thousands of dollars to relocate, thousands more to be taught false doctrine just so I could be taught by someone suave and sophisticated.

Just for arguements sake of course.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Amen! Sadly, our types of circles simply have never placed an emphasis on Bible Teaching.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

MTD, you're missing the point.

The whole idea of this thread supports equipping teachers. Somehow you have these competitive division that teachers somehow learn things about ancient languages, culture, the life and times of Jesus, canonology, exegesis, pastoral counseling, church history --- all by going to the library (and reading from some false doctrine crony you somehow have a hard time with).

Those dummies at Dallas Theological Seminary have offered a lifetime of theological scholarship that has been taken advantage of by every Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Born-Again Believer in Jesus Name. So it's quite hypocritical to take advantage of the labor and scholarship of others and then say you don't support formal scholarship.

Elders should be apt to teach. The idea of formal education does not take away from that role, it reinforces it.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

And if we go down that road again of "well, the disciples didn't go to Bible School," just pause a second and really think about your reply.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Sigh. I'm trying to strategize here and think of a way to say something you could comprehend and nothing is coming to mind. Maybe you could open a school and teach everyone the right way. I'm sure your door is being pounded down by people wanting the truth.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Wait... does MTD not believe his theology falls into the Protestant/Evangelical genre? :)

Let only the person with a perfect theology, who has figured everything out (without exposing his mind to different opinions and ideas, only by prayer and the Spirit) teach others. haaaaaaaa...

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

It certainly hasn't worked for you.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

There is virtually no thinking going on here, Jeffrey.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

It's very incestuous learning. "I'm the pastor, bless God you don't learn from anywhere else but me."

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

This is SO true. Virtually every tidbit of revelatory and applicable bible research, including every commentary and every version of the bible in print, has been handed to us by those idiot trinitarians. These boys learn all their stuff and then tell them they're going to hell. It's hilarious, really.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Oh no, he's different than anyone else. No wait.....He actually IS different than everyone else.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Exactly, which is where all this goofy doctrine hooey comes from. There is no accountability...no checks and balances...no one to say, "Now wait a minute....".


This might just turn into a good thread!

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Unfortunately, still not a thread offering solutions to the original post! :) Ah well.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Is there one? It's an immovable object vs. the irresistible force to me. How can there be great learning without great expense?

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

That is the question. If the benefit is the church universal, and the learners are serving the Church with their learning, seems like there should be solution for this. Otherwise, that level of learning for serving the church is reserved for those who can bear the student loans or afford it.

Local church scholarships? Regional scholarships? More scholarships available from the private Bible colleges? Also, while there are SOME scholarships available at the undergrad level, there are very few at the post-graduate level.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I don't have a formal education religious education, I believe God will make a way if someone is really called.

That said, I WOULD love to be able to attend a seminary or Bible college.

I wanted to attend a UPC Bible school, but was never able to, due to having a family very young. (Now I'm thankful for not going to a UPC Bible school, since they are unaccredited, and nearly everyone who did seems to regret going, and most don't even believe "the doctrine").

I would be interested in another venue, and where I live the most reputable school is Southwestern Theological Seminary, which is a Baptist school. But I cannot go, first off, because I am priced out of it , and secondly, because though I could be agreeable enough on most of the requirements to get in, affirming belief in the trinity is a requirement I cannot affirm.

Theres not really any other options as I really don't like the idea of online school, and I still have the responsibility to make a living for my family and help in the church, so full time school isn't an option.

Nevertheless, I think one can go pretty far in self education if they will commit themselves to reading the word, prayer, commentaries, word studies, etc.

Sometimes they are better off for it, because they don't have the indoctrination factor.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

There are a number of people that know the bible inside and out and they know it without any formal education. These fellows are often used as examples of why Higher Education in theology isn't needed.

But really, I think they usually ARE examples of why we DO need it. There are even a lot of them here on the forum, that can run circles around most when it comes to bible knowledge and they have no seminary training. The problem is, they misuse it, misapply it, misinterpret it, mis-everything it. I could name several.

Harold Camping is proof of this. There isn't anyone on earth that knows the bible better then he, but the man is a complete theological idiot. He's dangerous. But he knows the bible.

There has to be more than just knowing the bible.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I am also thinking of another self-educated poster who has a hard lined stance against gold, silver, and costly apparel in the jewelry thread here. He is the perfect example of someone who taught "THIS is what we believe!" and then reads every single verse of scripture through that filter rather than the other way around.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

I think there's definitely value to self-learning. And one can even be a functional minister that way (considering they are accountable to others). But as a generation, corporately, it's critical that men and women invest time to higher education in these matters as well.

Jason, I can relate to your desire vs. reality struggle. I'm surprised that any college requires you to affirm any particular doctrine. That hasn't been my experience. Most Christian universities (not operated by a local church) treat learning like most academics -- a place to reflect, ask questions, turn ideas upside down and come to conclusions. Perhaps affirming particular doctrines would be required for those that wish to be licensed or ordained with an organization, but that shouldn't be the fact for a university, and has not been the case for the universities I've attended (which were mostly AoG schools, and a midwest Baptist school).

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

:santathumb

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Yeah, i may check into it more in the future. I looked online at the prices and then the basic requirements. It may be possible to get in on a purely academic basis, but then again, I can't do it full time.

Where I live Dallas Theological is just slightly further that Southwestern (Fort Worth), and it is something I would like to do if I ever had the chance. Both universities are baptist, I don't know if there are any other such universities close by.

I do agree with your premise that in general there needs to be education in place. Im not anti-education, I just think God can help us to be suffiecient without it (on a personal level), if we are truly committed to Him.

From my POV I can learn basically everything I can learn in a seminary on my own, but the downside is it will take many more years to do so.

It would also be beneficial to be in a classroom setting wo debate and discuss and question.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

That is again beside the point...quality of education.

Why can't I go to a trinitarian university whose quality of education is better than any OP college and learn the fundamentals of theology, learn hermeneutics, greek, and other things?

Just because their theology is wrong does not make them fundamentally unsound. I learned algebra from a Mormon and his principles of teaching algebra was sound and I did not come out a Mormon.

And really, as I said, that is all beside the point. The issue is quality of education. Oneness needs to increase that in their ranks and the only way that is gonna happen is if they get a good education first. Many of our current teachers got their masters or PHds at secular and Trinitarian universities

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

That Pastor has to first be taught himself! Many OP pastors are uneducated formerly. Many more are unwilling to be educated formerly or informally by doing self study

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

Don't forget every time one of those OPs quotes Strongs or some other work they are often quoting a Trinitarian who went to a place of higher learning

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

They studied at the feet of Jesus. Paul studied at the feet of Gamaliel.

Re: Education Reformers Needed
 

They also have no problems quoting Ken Ham and others of the young Earth crowd when it suits them, even though they are all trinnies. Then again Ken Ham has no issues when quoting real scientists on the very rare occasion they agree with them -the rest of the time they are just evil secular humanists.