AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Think about it!! AFF is nothing but a BLACK HOLE of questions, fear, doubt, maybes, what if's, disagreement, and like ALL past generations, this running in circles will never stop!

Every statement made here gets sucked into oblivion!

Stand back and look at this. It's really quite comical, especially when you consider that the Bible is supposed to bring unity and agreement with Faith, or what many boldly claim, THE TRUTH!

I think this simply means, hold your breath…..there are GREY areas!

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

VERY GOOD OBSERVATION! I agree. :D

Some folks DO understand that here, though.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Well, so far, Not4Sale's statement hasn't been "sucked into oblivion."

I've come to think of the Bible as being a sort of Guidebook, and not some sort of Final Jeopardy style know-it-all "Answer Book." If you go to the Bible looking for absolute answers to everything, you often come back looking rather foolish. Just look at the Young Earth Creationists.

If however, you approach the Bible with a bit of humility and knock-it-off with the "God Talks To Me Inside My Head" nonsense, you do have the opportunity to glean a great deal of wisdom that has been accumulated, refined, stored and transmitted just for this purpose.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

I find AFF to be a great place to bounce ideas off of others. Sometimes you get useful input and other times you don't. That's because humans are involved (including myself.)

Some people view it as an endless source of questions, doubts etc.

I view the opposite as an endless source of back patting where everyone thinks the same and never challenge prevailing thought.

One is nice, clean, cut & dried and fosters no growth.

One is a bit untidy and rambles around a bit but it offers opportunity to learn and grow.

I'll take the latter.

Iron sharpens iron... but only when they are moving in opposite directions.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

You have multiplied the questions, doubts, maybes, what ifs, disagreements, ect. Congratulations.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Yep! Couldn't agree more!

And, it's a good place to talk with ya friends about shoes and grandchildren too!

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Like you haven't?? I guess we should just all agree with you and we can end this nonsense!! :laffatu

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

True! We talk about all kinds of interesting things, including the good stuff!:thumbsup

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

To be honest, I was thinking of this very thing today. The Bible is truly an amazing Book. I don't think any other Book on Earth is really quite like it. It can basically go whatever direction you go, and I think this might be the dilemma with people who try to define Scripture.

It appears that God may be a lot more flexible than we think. My wife and I have been doing a little research on Jewish Theology and have found some interesting concepts used by Rabbi's. One that fascinated me was that they believe there are 70 different interpretations to every "Word" in Scripture (Torah), and they are ALL right!

They also believe the Scripture to possess 4 different meanings to every event; allegorical, metaphorical, mystical, and literal, and they are ALL right.

It seems that 2 people can disagree on Scripture using the above method(s), yet they are both right.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

:thumbsup

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Excellent post!

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Within the Jewish religious circles this saying was first coined:

"Where there are two Jews, there are three opinions."

Hmmm Sounds a lot like AFF to me! :grampa

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

LOL! :lol Love it!!!

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

MY my my... another racist thread.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380143,00.html

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

This is great!! My wife and I got a good laugh on this one!! :pirate

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Ahhhhhh


I am sinking........


HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

You're on your own....NEXT!!:laffatu

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Appearently the way to be enlightened is to deny the inspiration of scripture, treating it as a buffet. Deny God's account of the creation of the universe, earth, mankind, flood, languages, miracles of the Exodus, walls of Jereicho, etc, but of course accept the virgin birth (if you still do) and the ressurection (how convenient). Yep that makes one wise. :heeheehee

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

I know, right?

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

A nice theory, but common sense tells us there cannot be contradicting "truths".....

I never heard the "they are all right" about the 4 interpretations. I think it is quite obvious that allegory is a very flimsy interpretation of scripture. To say nothing of mysticism. Maybe those types of beliefs attributed to Jesus telling those whose lifework was to know the law "you do err, not knowing the scriptures" and "have you not read?"

Nothing new, those who are pastors today who "know" the scriptures, don't "know" the scriptures. With their liberal theology and naturalistic explanations they have robbed the scripture of inspiration and attempt to discredit the only Word of God we posess. Without Biblical authority, there remains no authority, we can all be right in our own minds (unless we affirm that another book such as the Quaran, Book of Mormon, Vedas, etc is the Word of God).

The view which takes inspiration away from the Bible is the height of folly, and despite the criticisms of the Bible it continues to be vindicated time and time again.

Call me fundamentalist, simple, whatever, I still believe that God's word is true, and the promises are true. I have experienced this miraculously in my life and though I don't have the answers to all the "why" questions, I certainly do believe that God is able to make all things work together for good.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Hit the straw man a bit harder to see if he has any more stuffing in it.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Explain. Pel has made it clear in the past that He does not accept the things I wrote as either historical or miraculous, and that in his opinion, as he has shared again on this thread that to believe that Genesis 1-3 (amongst other chapters) is to make one appear foolish to the world, hence "unenlightened".

You were saying?

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

In a totally open forum like this with a wide array of views you can over-simplify any subject and make it a declarative statement when applying it to folks... which is a mistake.

There are conservatives on here (even if they are still thumb sucking after loss after loss), moderates, liberals, odd mixtures of other things with some apostolic flavoring... you name it.. its a open forum.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Right, and the open forum is why I continue to stick around. I didn't make the cut in the closed forum, where one is required to not question anything other than perhaps sleeve length or TV. Such sites get stale pretty quickly, I am also appalled at the things some men post about others in a forum that is closed to the public, some of which occassionally ends up over here at the "sewer".

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

I proactively asked to be deleted from APF, and was actively deleted form JP/AMF.

Its amazing what you see when their dinner table discussions are put into written format.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

If a minister is not willing to have his preaching questioned in the light of scripture, then maybe that minister should check to see whom he is truly serving and how humble his heart is.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Alot of it is peer pressure. Few UPCI ministers would dare use their real name on here for fear of it being used against them by their ministry peers.

I do give Rob McKee and a few others credit for not hiding behind a handle on here.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Word "Play" can change the entire scope of what one person believes, verses another, and unfortunately this is the problem with Scripture whether you or I like it. Over 30,000 Christian denominations prove this.

Go ahead and beat your drum of "Truth" all you want, but loop-holes in the Bible will always be found, period, bottom line.

The Jews do look at Scripture this way, and you can disagree with this all you want to, but I encourage you to go and talk to them about it. They (the Jews) are known for their intense debating methods.

So, whose Biblical authority do we follow? Yours? The guy down the street? Mine? A particular denomination? TBN? Can't you see, Jason, that this is the problem with Religion and Christianity? Everyone has "Their Take", and there isn't any real "Cut and Dry" interpretations of Scripture.

I don't see this as a problem, only the TRUTH we don't want to accept or hear. You claim you want TRUTH, but you don't want to accept the FACTS that the Bible is up for grabs when it comes to things like the Rapture, the New Birth, Modesty, Sin, what is Scripture and what isn't, Heaven and Hell, Holidays, Marriage and Divorce, and the list goes on.

You may claim hold on certain promises, as being God, but can you discern which were promises and which were the result of just plain life? Do you boldly claim God's Hand, when in fact there is a Time for everything, and that the cycle of life is destined by the person and circumstance of that person?

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Right, however that doesn't mean there isn't truth. It speaks to mans desire to attempt to interpret the Word of God through background, personal experience, and many times personal preferences. However, even if there were 100,000 denominations, it doesn't change the fact that there is one truth. And that truth is basically that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I do not believe any one denomination is THE church or denomination, I beleive while there are some that are heretical and damnable, there are people in nearly all denominations who will be saved.

you are confusing different interpretations with loopholes. There is basically no document on earth that everyone agrees on. In this country we can't even agree on the meaning of the constitution. That doesn't mean that tere isn't a correct interpretaion and understanding of the consitution. If there are 30,000 incorrect interpretaions of the consitution, it is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that the writers of the consitition had a particular meaning in mind when they wrote it, and to them they felt that meaning was clear. Furthermore as for 30,000 christian denominations, the large majority agree that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. So while there are differences on non essential doctrines, which some have confused as essential such as music, the place of bptism in salvation, words spoken at baptism, tongues, standards, etc, when stripped down to the most common denominator, the one that really matters where one will spend eternity, there is amazing agreement on the message of the Bible amongst the christian denominations.
So in rejecting absolute truth, you are fine with subjective relativism. Your truth may not be my truth. My truth may not be yours, but it is TRUE for moe and vise versa?

NO. You may be wrong, I may be wrong, we may both be wrong, and that is possible because there is a truth. As for Biblical authority, thats why it is so important to really study the word ourselves, but as I posted earlier, too often people tend to put their personal experience, bias, and even pride into Biblical interpretation, so it is difficult to arrive at 100% understanding and agreement. I personally don't believe this will happen until Christ returns.
What your asserting is a biblical buffet, pick and choose what you want, Jesus Society style. I am saying that there is truth and if I stray from that truth, whether through sincerity ro confusion, or purposeful neglect, my misunderstanding of God's Word doesn't make it any less true.
What are you talking about here? Because I claimed that the Bible is trustworhty and inspired your saying I am boldly claiming God's hand?

If the Bible ISN'T the Word of God, would you offer an alternative?

Furthermore, you as a pastor, what in the world do you preach? Do you preach out of the Bible, and if so, why? Do you also use the Quaran or the Vedas?

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

LOLOL Yep, having been a participant in the Men of the Bema (MOB) debates on Thursday nights, I can witness to the debating skills of Rabbis and synagogue elders.

Concerning my attempt at humor earlier. It is a true statement that where two Jews, there opinions. It works out like this:

There is your opinion, there is my opinion, and there is the opinion concerning what we agree on.

These 'discussions' can get quite intense. But, there is also healthy aspect to it. During the discussions one can make any claim they wish concerning the language, interpretation or application of scripture. At any time, anyone can challenge the person making a statement with the command, "Prove it."

At this point, the statement maker must quote (turn to) the scripture(s) that support his position, and explain how those scriptures accomplish that end. At this point a new discussion usually ensues concerning the correct interpretation/application of the referenced scriptures. The result is one must first know his scriptures and be able to defend his understanding of them - while (hopeful) remaining teachable.

Concerning the several levels of interpretation of scripture.

Yes, there a number of different levels of 'understanding'. While among the Hasidim the levels go to extreme lengths (Kabbala/Cabbala), the rule of thumb still remains that the most simple explanation is the best one.

However, to get an appreciation of this multi-level approach, including the God ordained examination of the underlying principles ('levels') of scripture, see Matthew chapters five through seven. There are also scriptural references to the Oral Law in these chapters. Also see 2 Timothy 3:8, reference to Jannes and Jambres, who are not otherwise identified in scripture.

Another problem is the failure of contemporary Bible teachers to understand the original languages and interpret our English translations according to the Hebrew (original authors) world view. This instructional failure is one of the direct causes of the multitude of Christian denominations of today - and they're still growing!.

Finally, how many time have any of us ever said, in reading a scripture I saw something in it I never saw before? Or, I got an understanding (insight, revelation) that I never got before. While the most obvious meaning of scripture is the best place to start, we should never be content to stay in the milk and pap stage. Milk is the surface, the meat is the not so obvious.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

Like Arnold said, "I'll be back!" Great post; son is about to stop by and stay the night...He's my 25 year old pal, and can't wait till he gets here!!

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

One additional thought on 'Absolute Truth'.

What is truth? According to Jesus Christ He is 'the truth', but I have found few who can define and explain what that statement actually means. Why? Because to define and explain what that truly means, one must also know, understand, and be able to explain who and what Jesus is - fully! To do a creditable job, one must write a book as complete as the Bible.

Re: AFF is a BLACK HOLE!
 

You said, "Call me fundamentalist, simple, whatever, I still believe that God's word is true, and the promises are true."

Defining the "Promise" is not only a problem, it is the unending chase as to what IS God, and what ISN'T. For instance, one person may say, "God has provided for me because I pay my tithes." So where does this leave the person who doesn't pay tithes, but considers themselves "Blessed" by God, and has the goods to prove it (physical proof, more money, things, promotion on job, ect)? The work around might be to accuse the blessed man as being blessed by the Devil, not God. And if the blessing doesn’t come to the man who does pay tithes, it might be because he paid on Net, not Gross.

Promises that revolve around Faith, especially when Heaven and Hell are used, leave the door wide open for mass manipulation. As a leader, I must somehow connect to God and know how to avoid the afterlife that may destroy me and others, and then teach my supposable connection to God to people who are willing to listen to my professional opinion which might have come alive during prayer, study, or the advice of others in my Religion. Soon, my benchmarked ideals become the mainstay of my followers, and they may thrive under my “Deep” ability to express the spiritual, even though I can’t PROVE what will actually happen to people when they die.

Since the "Promise" of Salvation, Healing, Financial gain, and the many other hopes that are so varied and un-provable within Faith, people are left to wonder. Not because we purposely deceive them, but because we've hardwired our brains to believe in something which no one can question with the facts.

The "Facts" about the Bible frighten the average Christian because we are taught to never question its authority. Yet, when we truly delve into this Book we find a host of problems which lead us further into denial IF we want to protect our Heritage of Faith; and this is the destiny of ALL Religions if they want to survive; DENIAL! Religion is a drug, soothing the inner chaos that all humans deal with, and without it we can go through withdrawals, leading one to desperate guilt and inner condemnation that can guide a person to suicide. If the shackles of Religion are broken, a clear mind can return to a more healthy perspective that is free from excluding people, or condemning others.

The mental game of Religion is not only a plague to the individual mind, its Power and Control in the political ramifications of ALL Societies. Religion also becomes the benchmark for War and hatred of others who don't follow a particular Faith, including Christianity. The Japanese and Germans in WWII were both incited by Religious fervor to do what they did, which led to the slaughter of over 70 million human beings; the largest death toll of any previous War in History.

Yes, I use the Bible, which I have studied thoroughly for over 33 years, but I use it with caution. I am far more careful than I’ve been in the past, realizing that people are counting on me for the FACTS, not some made up idea that others have handed down to me via Tradition, Personal Opinion, or Religious dogma. Jason, the Bible is written by men. This Book is not written by God. If God wrote the Bible, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Our responsibility to fellow man and to those whom we love is to give them the TRUTH, regardless of our past teachings or beliefs. I feel, if we are to stand before God in the end in accountable fashion, I would rather be known for giving people the FACTS, as solid Truth can be measured and weighed. I have made the mistake in the past of telling people things which cannot be measured, and I feel this has hinged on mind-bending people with illusionary tactics that are flat, wrong.

I also have seen the Apostolic Faith use the pulpit as a device to strong-arm people with promises that never come to pass, leading countless people into a Forum of thought that never truly pans out. I was recently reflecting on the day when Bro. Urshan was supposed to have an encounter with either the Antichrist, or the forerunner of the Antichrist in a desert meeting. People went head over heels over this apparent TRUTH. Well, this Promise came and went……………..with no promise.