A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I recently watched a webcast, called "HM Live," over on the upci.org wesbsite. The webcast consisted of Carlton Coon, who is the UPCI general Home Missions Director, interviewing David Bernard, the General Superintendent of the UPCI.

As I watched, and listened, my jaw hit the floor. It is very evident that the UPCI knows that the Apostolic Identity campaign has been a complete failure.


Coon: You know I was talking to…Brother Hanscom and I…who is our Director of Multicultural Ministries, were talking yesterday about one of our Korean pastors who is a wonderful man…but his observation was that every time he begins teaching lifestyle change to his new converts, they’re gone. Well, my response to Brother Hanscom was that it’s taking a long time… to bring people to where they’re good stewards of life, and where they’re and where…they’re living things we feel to be important to Apostolic Identity. And some of it, I think, is our expectations of there being a quick fix….but conversion doesn’t give people all of the principles of life that they need.

Bernard: Right.

And that forces us…the solution is to be very biblical…

Coon: Right:

Bernard: As a home missionary I had to be very biblical. I’m asking major life changes. I’m asking for a new convert that’s in a live-in relationship to move out of that relationship. That’s a huge thing. And in our culture, the question is “why? Why should I have to do that?”

So, therefore, since I know I am going to be making lots of demands, in a sense, through preaching, and teaching, and love, and counsel…I don’t want to add anything that’s really more cultural than biblical. I have enough on my hands that’s biblical without having to put my cultural, or even personal, expectations. So, a lot of things I delay. A lot of things I don’t even deal with. And, I think your appeal…when it goes more to the Bible…that’s your best chance of that convert changing their way of life.

Coon: I know when I taught our new converts class that was our basis of operation. And when we got beyond scripture…to things that maybe would be my preference…people would begin to ask, “well, now, everything else has been Bible-based…why is this suddenly important and it’s not Bible-based?”

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Here is the link to the full webcast.

http://www.homemissionsdivision.com/hmlive/

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Coon: "You know I was talking to…Brother Hanscom and I…who is our Director of Multicultural Ministries, were talking yesterday about one of our Korean pastors who is a wonderful man…but his observation was that every time he begins teaching lifestyle change to his new converts, they’re gone. Well, my response to Brother Hanscom was that it’s taking a long time… to bring people to where they’re good stewards of life, and where they’re living things we feel to be important to Apostolic Identity. And some of it, I think, is our expectations of there being a quick fix….but conversion doesn’t give people all of the principles of life that they need."

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Bernard: "So, therefore, since I know I am going to be making lots of demands, in a sense, through preaching, and teaching, and love, and counsel…I don’t want to add anything that’s really more cultural than biblical. I have enough on my hands that’s biblical without having to put my cultural, or even personal, expectations. So, a lot of things I delay. A lot of things I don’t even deal with. And, I think your appeal…when it goes more to the Bible…that’s your best chance of that convert changing their way of life."

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Saw it and commented on this in another thread ... fascinating ... I thought it was interesting that they even suggested "delaying" certain cultural things in order to keep the new converts.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I am willing to sell the domain for them if they want to do some AI marketing.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Bernard:

things like what ... no beards or facial hair?

How long is the delay on skirts? How long with the live-in boyfriend?

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Ya, spring it on them when they have their guard down. Or hope that peer pressure will do the job before hard preaching has to.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

He's advocating the bait and switch.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

This is more than shocking. DKB has been a very vocal proponent of Apostolic Identity. In fact, he coined the term Apostolic Identity. As South Texas District Superintendent, he pushed to exclude or remove any pastor who did not comply with the basic tenants of Apostolic Identity.

Now DKB admits he delayed teaching AI to his new converts and, in some cases, refused to teach it at all?

Amazing!

I find this admission very frustrating, because many UPCI Home Missionaries have been struggling to "line up" to the extra-biblical expectations of Apostolic Identity for years. They, unlike DKB, did not delay teaching it because they were pressured to teach it. This pressure was applied at every national and statewide conference in America over the past five years.

The hypocrisy is amazing.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Take a look at the Kerygma work ... a "daughter work" in downtown Austin... including some in leadership ...

and I tell you it's FAR FROM AI.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Nuff said.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

So, what do we say to the Home Missionary pastor who has lost dozens of precious souls because he did teach Apostolic Identity, without delay?

What do we say to the Home Missionary who eventually gave up because, just like the Korean pastor, every time he preached it, he lost an entire congregation?

What does this say about the integrity of leadership within the United Pentecostal Church? You delay teaching what you really believe, because you're afraid of the consequences? You refuse to teach what you really believe because you are afraid new converts will leave?

What if every UPCI pastor took the same approach DKB admitted to? How long until the UPCI looked radically different than it does right now?

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Caveat ... DKB makes a distinction regarding teaching what he believes is biblical and cultural ... although in one of his Holiness books he admits skirts only on a woman is a germane to Western culture ... and not necessarily in others.

It can be argued that pants on a woman is now a generally accepted mode of dress in Western culture today.

It's word parsing and he's good at it.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Further, has DKB violated the Affirmation Statement? Is he now a liar? After all, by signing the AS he pledged to believe, embrace and teach Apostolic Identity.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

His example of a cultural thing being the live-in boyfriend was a poor choice ... and it's going to sting him.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I have no axe to grind with either of these men. I just find DKB's admission somewhat of a smoking gun.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

It doesn't seem any different than ever before. The main question is, What is biblical? Adultery? Fornication? Hair? Jewelry?

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

When we follow men rather than the Bible dead end roads are to be expected.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I think you misread it. He is saying it's more of a Biblical thing, and must be addressed upfront at the time of conversion. It's not simply a cultural thing that might be delayed...

The culture we live in does not understand this...

Bernard: Right.

And that forces us…the solution is to be very biblical…

Coon: Right:

Bernard: As a home missionary I had to be very biblical. I’m asking major life changes. I’m asking for a new convert that’s in a live-in relationship to move out of that relationship. That’s a huge thing. And in our culture, the question is “why? Why should I have to do that?”

So, therefore, since I know I am going to be making lots of demands, in a sense, through preaching, and teaching, and love, and counsel…I don’t want to add anything that’s really more cultural than biblical. I have enough on my hands that’s biblical without having to put my cultural, or even personal, expectations. So, a lot of things I delay. A lot of things I don’t even deal with. And, I think your appeal…when it goes more to the Bible…that’s your best chance of that convert changing their way of life.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Ultimately, they will refuse to define what is biblically mandated. There is the problem.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Indeed. When one cannot display something is biblical and yet cannot afford to admit otherwise then silence is the remaining choice.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

DAII is right. It is bait and switch.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I don't think it's any secret at all that most foreign works have always been very lax on what we understand as westernized standards.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Ahh... don't have to affirm the affirmation... I just may get a license and ...do nothing with it.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

There is much silence.......and simple frowning disapproval and confusion and chaos.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I think it will sting him too.

However, I don't think a one size fits all. Many couples that live together have been together for many years. Some are divorcees that have children. To advocate that they dissolve their relationship immediately would be problematic and traumatic for all involved. I'd advocate just preaching the Word. God's GRACE is sufficient to keep them saved. Eventually the Word will do the work and convict them to marry.

I don't believe God demands perfection. I do believe that grace is provided for the sinner. It's the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinful and undeserving. Their salvation isn't based on performance...but position... and if saved... their position is "in Christ".

Should they serve in some form of ministry? I wouldn't recomend it until they were married.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Think of all the innocent souls that have been damaged for...nothing.

Think of all of the disillusioned pastors.

Think of all that blood on somebody's hands.

All because of religious pride.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Pastors, forced to teach AI, driving away UPC new converts by the hundreds and thousands, now being told they could have delayed teaching it, or ignored it altogether.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Ya lost me there... this is in reference to asking shack ups to separate or get married? or...

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Hoovie, they have blood on their hands because of extra-biblical mandates that drove people away.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

True; and the reasoning behind it is So Very Annoying. If these issues were truly viewed as salvational, they would be taught with equal fervor overseas.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

hmm... I am not seeing that in the conversation. Any sizable church has always had members or constituents in various stages of adherence to church teachings and practice. Same is true in the Baptist Churches.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I was always taught that this would lead the women to wear dresses and not cut their hair too. :rolleyes2

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Amen.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Don't you think that example was intended to throw off those who might jump to the obvious (and correct) conclusion? Do you really think any pastor worth his salt would hesitate to discourage a new convert from continuing in immorality?

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

Perhaps. I would like to believe one who is Born Again is not really that fragile. A genuine experience with Jesus transcends denominationalism period.

How many have left the baptist churches because of their harsh approach against alcohol? How many have left Lutheranism because they don't embrace charismatic gifts.

It's a stretch to say there is blood on someones hands etc. ...

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I disagree.

Many people walk away believing they are lost because a preacher tells them they're lost. In effect, the preacher does the work of Satan, effectively separating a newborn from both Father God and the church.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working
 

I think that with most couples, after becoming more rooted in a given church the desire for marriage will increase, especially in the heart of the lady involved. I've seen it dozens of times. A couple living together comes to church and after several months... she's talking more and more about marriage. At this point the couples I've seen will either move to marry or the pressures of being unmarried (their own choice) will wear on them. I've seen couples break up because she wants marriage and it becomes evident that he doesn't. I've also seen couples eventually leave together. At any rate... God was allowed to convict and deal with the couple.

Of course, I'm for common law marriage. I think that if a couple lives together for a given period, identifies themselves as married, and files taxes together... the law should legally recognize them. I don't think the government should have such an extensive reach of control over personal relationships.

Re: A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working