Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Had an interesting conversation with a couple Sunday afternoon about salvation. They were adament that water baptism is essential for salvation as well as being filled with the Holy Ghost with initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. They were emphatic about it, yet in the conversation they said a couple of things that didn't match their rhetoric.

First, I gave them the hypothetical situation where a man repents on a Sunday morning but wants to get baptized on Sunday night so family and friends can come to witness the event and celebrate it. What happens if the man dies that afternoon?
I also shared the story of a man who is dying and repents on his deathbed. Will that man go to heaven?

Their response was, "We aren't the judge. I won't put those people I hell. That's God's decision." Well, if baptism is essential for salvation, there can't be exceptions. It is either absolutley essential or not, period.

Then in the conversation they confessed that although their 13 year old son had repented and had received the HG, he has yet to be baptized. They said they were careful not to pressure him and have told him when he was ready to let them know. Really? Do you really believe that baptism is absolutely necessary? Wouldn't you be more forceful with your own child knowing that he isn't ready for heaven?

I think these people reflect a lot of folks who say they believe these things are essential for salvation, because that is what they've always been told, that their hero-pastor, Brother So-and-So preached it this way, that granny walked in this way. Yet they are willing to admit that there are scenarios where God won't require some people the "3 Steps" on a case by case basis. I used to say these same things to explain the anomalies that would arise from time to time to my Apostolic paradigm.

I preach and practice water baptism in Jesus Name. I preach the baptism of the HG. I believe in speaking in tongues and I do speak in tongues (more than you all---ha, just kidding). I don't speak in tongues every day. I don't even really keep track of when I do or how often. My wife and two of my kids have repented, been baptized in JN and have received the baptism of the HG. My youngest son has yet to be baptized in the HG. I believe he is going to heaven right now though. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.

There are 18 conversions recorded in Acts. There are 4 that include the Acts 2:38 pattern. ALL of them, however, include repentance/faith/believing. In fact, faith is the one constant from Genesis to Revelation.

One thing the couple said that was telling to me when I talked about our vision to reach the lost, to rejoice in the altar service at their repentance. I said, "After all the three of us are going to heaven. We have got to be focused on those who aren't." They chuckled and said, "Well, we're trying to get there. We hope we go there." Its revealing of the legalist mindset. They aren't legalists when it comes to standards, but they are when it comes to salvation. They've completed what is essential for salvation in their minds, yet they aren't sure they are saved. It was like looking at myself 20 years ago.

And admittedly I find myself fighting that urge from time to time to evaluate myself on my performance. How well am I doing? Am I praying enough? Am I reading my Bible consistently? Am I staying clean and unspotted by sin and the world? Am I being good? But the Lord doesn't evaluate me on my performance. He evaluates me through the cross. I am evaluated as a father evaluates his child. He loves me based not on performance but based on our relationship. I am saved because of His grace, and I live with peace, not "hoping" I can make it. I know I'm going to make it.

Do I fall? Do I fail? Do I sin? Absolutely. Am I smitten when I do? Am I broken-hearted when I disappoint my Father? Yes. Am I repentant and remorseful? Yes. But I'm not "trying" to get to heaven. I am trying to be obedient to my Father and yield to His will every day, with every choice.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Good post.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Well, Pastor ... welcome to the TRUTH.

Also be prepared to be slammed for it.

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Baptism is an essential act of obedience for every saved person.

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Excellent post. Very thought provoking. When one is raised in a performance based religion the psychological conditioning is usually so strong it is very hard to think differently. I still struggle with this.

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Great Post.

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Good to hear from you - - - and loved the post.

It sounds ALL too familiar.

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Hmmmm. Trying to figure out why I am still in this "performance based religion" and I think it is a good post...

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Great post, you've summed up so much in one post!


My stance exactly! :thumbsup

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Wow! This post made me do some serious self evaluation. I can remember many times repeating the same rhetoric when someone would pose ceretain scenarios to me. That is very ironic, seeing as how so many of us have reacted the same way at one time, although we most likely never even talked to or knew one another!

There are so many versus os scripture that I have heard quoted that link literal performance with our salvation...I have heard it preached about the talents, and how if you have a gift to use for God and don't you are going to Hell, and how we are commanded to win souls and if we don't win souls as ministers, then we are putting our souls at risk of Hell.

I remember some years ago looking at my wife and saying something like: "We were told in the begining that we needed to repent, be baptized, and recieve the Holy Ghost. Now a few years later the list keeps getting bigger..I wonder if we will ever do enough to be saved?"

I wonder how many have felt this same way? When you think of it, when you were a child, you tried so hard to make your parents proud. You made mistakes, and even willfully did some things you knew you were not supposed to do. Through it all your folks loved you. Sure you got punished every now and again, maybe even got the belt (I did!) But your parents never stopped loving you based on your ability to perform perfectly.

If our earthly parents love us that much, how much more does the one who created us love us? I mean really, how many Christians that really love God and communicate with Him would He just toss to the side because they cut their hair, wore pants, or went swimming at the beach? Better yet, when they call on their Dad, in need and broken, will He toss them out because they missed a step along the way?

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

We (Apostolic-raised) don't understand what it means to be sons of God, by and large. "If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Spirit to those who ask of Him?" Yet we have the "chronic seekers", the begging children coming to the altar asking, pleading, wondering why their Father seems to not like them, why he won't let them speak in tongues, why He seems to give it easily and effortlessly to others and witholds it from them.

I was one of them. From age 8 to 18 I didn't speak in tongues after my first experience as a child. All through the rest of my childhood and teen years I would go to the altar and ask, and weep and beg and try to understand why I couldn't speak in tongues. I was told from the pulpit that there was something wrong with me if I didn't speak in tongues every day. I didn't speak in tongues weekly, monthly or annually. I would waffle from "God has abandoned me" to "I'm just not tarrying long enough", to "I just don't have enough faith", to "I must have something in my life I'm not surrendering". I just couldn't get it. However, I never stopped understanding the cross and His love for me. I would weep at the preaching, during worship, in my bedroom in prayer. I read my Bible and I loved the Lord. I won some friends to Jesus in high school and they were changed. I just had this little personal struggle that I didn't understand. However, I never got to the place where I thought I was lost. I always understood I was His beloved son.

Then in Bible school the revelation hit me. There wasn't a single passage that demanded speakimng in tongues every day or even after the initial infilling. It was a great relief to me and shortly thereafter I prayed for and God gave me the gift of tongues that has been a part of my prayer life, worship and walk God ever since. I still believed in the "initial eveidence" for a long time afterward, but in time came to realize that that wasn't scriptural either.

Looking back on it I can see the one thing that kept me from complete discouragement and hopelessness. It was the grace of God. I never once thought He didn't love me. I never once struggled with the idea that He was with me (sometimes I didn't think He was in me). I never believed that I was less important to the Lord. I knew consciously and subconsciously that I was His child.

And isn't that the source of much of what is wrong in the world today? Father issues. The missing fathers in people's lives or the absence of a loving father is the root of much of what is wrong in humanity. Ultimately its the lack of understanding our heavenly Father and His love and compassion for us that causes people to embrace legalism or to reject Him altogether.

Saw a documentary on Hitler the other day. It said his father was given to fits of rage and would beat Adolph as a little child often. His father was a strict and harsh disciplinarian. I wonder what kind of man Adolph Hitler might have become had he had a different father? What kind of people would we become if we understood our Father is not like this! What the world would become if we understood and had a right relationship with our Father! What kind of Christians and what kind of churches we would be and have if we could embrace this Gospel of Grace versus a different gospel that is "Jesus Plus"?

I thank God for the peace and security I now live with in the greater understanding of His Fatherhood. Its a great place to be! Would to God all men could know its profundity!

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Got a website, Deac? Aren't you in Memphis? PM me if you want.

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I hope you have enjoyed your time as a member of the United Pentecostal Church International!!! You clearly have "gone charismatic".

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:shockamoo

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I was thinking the same thing :happydance:thumbsup

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

More like "gone Global" or "going Global"...:)

And I have, for the most part, enjoyed the UPC. Its by far been more positive than negative. And I appreciate my history. Far more people who were genuinely walking with Jesus than weren't were my experience. My parents and my Granny especially. My pastor and his wife were always kind to me and very prayerful people. The folks who taught Sunday School and were elders. Youth leaders, music folks, the average church goer, the vast majority great people, children of God. I love them and appreciate them and would love nothing more than to see God's blessings on them all and their churches and ministers. I am grateful for my upbringing.

But ultimately I must follow where God is taking me. Just trying to trust and obey.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

I appreciate your spirit. However, I can't honestly say the same as right here in the bolded.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Another Motown boy bites the dust.

I'm going Global as well, this year.

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I appreciate your good spirit and attitude. There are a lot of good folks in the UPC. Glad you are trusting and obeying where God is leading you.

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I have always wondered about the sequence of salvation in the 3-step process...the traditional is repentance, baptism, then tongues as they are coming out of the water...at least this is the marketing message. A curveball is tossed into the abstract when someone speaks in tongues without being baptized. I have heard it preached that God will not deposit his spirit (wine) in an dirty pot. Interesting that if the Lord would fill someone with HIS spirit, and if that person were not baptized, then a spirit filled person would be considered damned?...and what of the effectiveness of their baptism?

...then there are tithes. :ursofunny

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

I just wonder about all the seemingly anti-baptism sentiment. Some seem to think it's unnecessary, yet we have scripture to baptize. How do you reconcile that?

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Haven't heard anyone on this forum against baptism ... ever.

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Cindy, I think there is more thought and consideration than ever before as there is an ongoing battle between what is scripture and what is culture?

Consider these...is a baptism still valid if the baptizer is a child molestor?

Is a baptism valid if absolutely nothing is said over the person being baptized?

What of the person who speaks in tongues, is someone filled with the Holy Spirit of God damned if he/she is not baptized.

We are really just talking about stuff. :D

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Have you examined every incidence of conversion in the book of Acts? If so, where is repentance preached in Acts 8, 9 or 10? Did Paul preach repentance to the jailer in Phillippi? Does this lack of the preaching of repentance mean that someone who believes in Christ but does not repent of his sins is saved?

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Tongues and baptism are normative to the christian church in Acts. The immediate submission to water baptism upon hearing the word and believing is also normative.

As a Christian practice and command, it is essential. But again it is a command and an obligation to those having faith. So if someone has decided to be baptized by faith, that the die before doing so does not mean they were disobedient

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Just a reminder to all -

The book of Acts is primarily a short-form history book, that also contains some theology and doctrinal statements. It is not all inclusive in either the history of the church, its major players, nor does it contain the complete teaching of Jesus Christ or that of all of His apostles and subsequent established prophets who brought additional revelation and instructions to the church. The book does not include the histories, ministries or doctrines of Peter, James and John, not to mention all of the other apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers.

The epistles are rather skimpy on full doctrinal details, and generally contain responses to problems that have been transmitted to Paul from the different churches. Sometimes one cannot tell for certain which comments in the letters are quotes from the churches or Paul's own ideas. These differences are not always clear in classical Greek, as the language has no quotation marks in its grammatical structure - it just 'understood'. At any rate, unidentified quotes in a responding letter sent back to an originating church would be known and easily recognized by that church.

Consequently, we all need to be very careful about what is actually communicated in the NT scriptures. Over the centuries too many men have attempted to 'fill in the blanks' with their own good ideas of what God intended to communicate in these books. The result can be seen throughout the Christian world - division and contention, and when religious traditions clash, we even have our 2,000 year history of different groups killing those who profess a different belief in Jesus than the group currently in power.

On another thread I made the comment that even the OP movement is as fragmented as all of the rest of the Christian community. Out of all of this confusion, we join ourselves into little bands of religious warriors who fight one another (right/wrong games, spiritual one-upmanship contests, harsh accusations and judgments, etc.), while the true enemy sits on the sidelines and cheers us on.

Conclusion: We, as believers in Jesus Christ, are, for the most part, not His true disciples. We more readily follow after our own teaching and traditions or that of other men - before we give Jesus His rightful place in our lives. We even give the Holy Spirit of God a higher position in our lives that what the scriptures assigned to Him (He is a 'Him', never an 'It'). We turn ourselves and the scriptures upside down, and then wonder why we no longer turn the world upside down. Think about it: Why is our culture and society in the shape that it is in? Why have we become ineffective in influencing the world?

The answer is simple. While we talk, look, and sometimes act differently than 'the world', in our own way we have become just a carnal as they are. Salt that looks like it did 2,000 years ago, but for all of its appearance, has lost its saltiness.

I apologize for the rambling, but this seemed like a good time and place to vent. :grampa

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Great post, Deac. I know of an instance of a man who had repented, asked to be baptized, only to be put off until the following Sunday. He was killed in a car accident on the Friday or Saturday before he was baptized. So, my question is this: If he is lost for all of eternity, who will be held accounbtable for his soul? The man himself? Or the preacher that failed to act immediately?

I was told on this very forum by a preacher (who is no longer here) that babies that die in infancy will go to hell because they were not batized. I then asked about unborn babies that die as a result of abortions. Still waiting on that answer, though its been a couple of years.

Sometimes I think the Lord should have given us one more Fruit of the Spirit. Or a another Gift of the Sprit. And I think it should be called COMMON SENSE. I know I could use a double portion of that one!

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

And, note to the above: Yes, I believe baptism is essential. Not to get saved, but, because we are saved. We, IMO, are saved when the Lord forgives our sins, which, again IMO, happens when we repent of those sins.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Right on! :thumbsup

Been Thinkin

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

I was not given my beliefs by a UPC Pastor. I was a Charismatic who started out in the Jesus Movement of the 70's. While yet involved in such groups I came through study of scripture to see that water baptism is essential to salvation.

What could be more simple.

He that believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. He who believes not shall be damned.
Baptism is part of believing.

The Protestant/Evangelical version is the opposite.

He who believes AND IS SAVED should be baptized....

See the difference?

The words of Jesus convinced me to believe what I believe. Not mens words. I was happy to recieve truth and depart from Protestant Evangelical error.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

What meanest thou?

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

I think 3 steppers look at one steppers as believing baptism is unnecessary while in reality most one steppers view baptism as something very important but something that is a sacrament every believe should want to do as part of following Christ, not something they do as a requirement of salvation.

My one step pastor has preached the importance, beauty, and significance of taking on Christ in water baptism as a symbol of being buried with him, identified with him, etc.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I'm not sure why anyone would be against baptism...?

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

Again, I don't believe anyone here is against baptism.

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I understand. I was fortunate to be male, had parents that were reasonable (I was allowed to play sports, be involved in extra-curricular activities, sing in the school choir, act in school plays), our church did not preach against tv, and my pastor did not preach hard standards. The ladies would get a Bible study about once a year in a "women's only" closed door session on the dos and donts. It was also just a part of the church culture. We all knew what the standards were. Our church was considered a liberal church although still pretty staunch on the hair/make up/pants/jewelry stuff.

I know a lot of folks who had terribly negative experiences. I witnessed people being treated wrongly at various points and times. I personally had very few traumatic events. Again, mostly positive.

Re: Baptism: Essential or Not
 

I'm not anti-baptism. I am pro-baptism. We mention it almost every Sunday. I just believe justification takes place at faith. After you repent and become a child of God, you should be baptized. Not for justification, but to follow Christ's example, to obey His command to be baptized, to identify with His burial, to publicly declare your faith in the blood of Jesus.

The scripture makes it clear we are forgiven and cleansed at repentance. We are saved by grace through faith.

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Actually, CC1, Rom 6:4 says we are buried with Him BY baptism. Don't say anything about it being just a 'symbol'.

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Also Gal. 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

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Why does heaven rejoice over one soul that repents (Luke 15) if that soul is still bound for hell? The thief on the cross wasn't baptized yet was saved. Why didn't he have to be baptized?