Where do I Belong? Part II
 

My story is similar to Pastor Keith's.

I am in somewhat of a no man's land, theologically, and the past year has been a year of major transition.

After spending the better part of two decades in the UPCI as an assistant pastor, youth pastor, church planter and senior pastor, I recently turned in my license. I did so because I could no longer stomach the extra-biblical standards, and because my view of what constitutes the plan of salvation has changed.

I now believe we are justified at faith. My view was formed from this passage.

Romans 3:19-28 NLT

"Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law."


If we are justified at the moment we believe, all else is secondary and proceeds from that saving faith. Of course, this new (to me) theology does not kosher with that of the majority of Apostolics so I suppose I am no longer Apostolic.

Like Keith, I recently disengaged from all of the minister's forums I had previously posted on.

It's cold out here.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Welcome to the family of God.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

:thumbsup

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

PM me your identity.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

*cough, cough*

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Just talked to a friend last week and they shared the word "homeless" with me.

It hit hard, but sometimes that's where you feel like you are.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

It can be, d'If. But I found a fire inside that keeps me warm. Preach what's on your heart. Make a stand. You've got the Word of God on your side.

The thing is, I believe the Org. knows this as well. It doesn't seem that way at times. I am frequently disappointed by some of the things those close to me say, but there are people like DKB and others who I KNOW see things from the "God is our Savior" side of things.

We just have to try and keep encouraging them to affirm the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and not some other "gospel."

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Awesome advice!

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

*cough cough*

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

You guys need to get the flu vaccine!

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Welcome to the Forum.

Take heart brother. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of ministers in the US that have experienced the very same thing you have. It's possible to network. In this interim, where you're still getting your "sea legs", just KNOW that the Lord Jesus is your friend and His expectations of you are quite different than what the org placed on you. If you are looking for a home church, don't commit to the first one you go to...and above all, protect as best you can any insinuations cast your way (and if you're married, your wife's) that you are "weak on the message". It's a canard used to make you feel guilty for leaving them.

I have a similar resume. Here's the thing. They WANT you to feel like it is cold. This is no lie, but the last words I heard a UPC pastor say to me as I got in my car to leave our home church was, "It's mighty cold out there....".
So, praise God, let the Lord Jesus lead you in this area called grace.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Do you understand that repentance is not included in this view of justification?

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Cold is a place where you SEEK shelter and warmth - - perhaps this is right where God wants us. Closer to HIM.

Being all warm and cozy with the familiar crowd might not challenge us.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Some believe repentance accompanies belief (in the same instance).

Repentance meaning, one turning toward faith/trust in God.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Then Peter was being redundant when he told those who were pricked in their hearts to repent in Acts 2 since the pricking in their hearts is evidence of conviction caused by faith in what Peter preached.

as was Jesus: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Repentance is a change of mind or a turning from darkness to light that is brought about by hearing the gospel and believing it.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Do you understand that repentance is the act that takes place in order for this view of justification to even be available?

Quit twisting things around, Mizzie. You know better than that.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Not redundant.

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And just how is this "left out" of what d'If said about justification?

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

These are good traditional definitions of the word repentance, but if you're going to use the word Peter used for the altar call on the day of Pentecost it simply means reconsider.
IOW, reconsider, you Jews, who it was who you killed. Reconsider His claims concerning Himself as the Son of God, Son of man and Messiah.
Reconsidering something and being remorseful aren't the same thing, although one can lead to the other, which it did for 3,000 on the DofP.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Excellent thoughts, Savvy.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Here are the choices on how to define μετανοήσατε (which by the way is an imperative) from BDAG: (1) change one's mind or (2) feel remorse, repent, be converted

The second choice is the one in which Acts 2:38 is listed under.

I'm not going to argue this one with you. Take it up with the writers of BDAG.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

I don't see how anyone can base their theology on so important a doctrine as salvation on the NLT.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

what's BDAG?
anything like PBJ? or BLT? or GLBT?

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

We are Pilgrims in this world. Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker was God.
We still need to look to that day when we will have eternally made it.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Chateau,
You are more apostolic than those you formerly affiliated yourself with. They have hijacked the term to mean "as per our by-laws"...Take heart!
There are hundreds, probably thousands that have experienced what you have in finding grace instead of law.
The the love of GOD that I have found in the Cross shatters the myth of the gospel in an Acts 2:38 nutshell.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Why do you set up a strawman to fight against? Who is saying that Acts 2:38 is the gospel?

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

It's a greek lexicon of the New Testament. The letters stand for the last names of the men who wrote the lexicon. You can find out more if you Google BDAG.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Every word of the Bible is important...we need to pray that we will have the wisdom to rightly divide it...

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Amen I agree with that statement.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Hi Trouvere, I though that you might be interested. I just finished my fourth semester of Biblical Greek at a local bible college. Do you remember when we took it online together?

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

So are you all saying Keith no longer accepts that Acts 2:38 message is the fulfillment of the new birth? It was not long ago he was rejoicing in the teaching of David Pawson and his book "The Normal Christian Birth". He teaches similar to Oneness Pentecostals about it.

As far as the man made standards of the UPC I certainly can understand rejecting them. I personally left the mainline Apostolic Churches in the early 80's because of the extra biblical teachings. That does not mean we should forsake the truth of the new birth.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

For the record, the UPCI officially teaches we are justified by faith
http://www.newlifeupc.org/wp-content..._newbirth.html

Justification by Faith

To be justified means to be counted or declared righteous by God. The Bible clearly teaches justification by faith: "The just shall live by faith" (Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38).
Paul preached this doctrine: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man [Jesus] is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38-39).
Paul emphasized justification by faith in his writings: "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight… But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe… Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:20-25). "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16). Romans 4 and Galatians 3 contain much additional teaching on this subject.
The bottom line is this: no one can be justified by observing the law of Moses or by doing good works. Instead, the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us. Having established this, we must next determine what true faith in Christ is and how to have it. For a start, we note the words of Benjamin Warfield: "Justification by faith does not mean… salvation by believing things instead of doing right. It means pleading the merits of Christ before the throne of grace instead of our own merits." [4]


And saved by grace alone througth faith


Salvation Comes Only Through Faith in Jesus Christ

Not only does each man need salvation, there is nothing man can do to save himself. No amount of good works or adherence to law can save a man. Ephesians 2:8-9 proclaims, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." This means salvation is a free gift from God. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ made this free gift of salvation available, and the only way to receive salvation is to have faith in Jesus and in the sufficiency of His sacrifice. Of course, saving faith in Christ includes obedience to His gospel and application of His gospel to our lives. (See Chapter 2 - Grace and Faith for further discussion of grace and faith.)
We must stress that salvation can come only through faith, and that faith must be in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus asserted, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). He also said we must believe He is God manifested in the flesh as our Savior. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).
Why is reliance upon Christ absolutely necessary? Since all men are sinners, the holiness of God demanded that He separate Himself from sinful man and also required death as a penalty for man. God chose to bind Himself by the principle of death for sin. Without the shedding of blood (the giving of a life) there can be no remission or release from this penalty (Hebrews 9:22) and no restoration to fellowship with the holy God. (See Ephesians 2:13-17; Colossians 1:19-22.) The death of animals is not sufficient to remit the sin of man (Hebrews 10:4), because man is much greater than the animals in that he was created in the spiritual, mental, and moral image of God (Genesis 1:27). Neither can an ordinary man become the substitutionary sacrifice for another, for all deserve eternal death for their own sins.
In order to provide a suitable substitute, God manifested Himself in flesh through the man Jesus Christ. Christ is the only sinless man who has ever lived, so He was the only One who did not deserve to die and who could be a perfect substitute. Therefore, His death became a propitiation or an atonement - the means by which God can pardon sins without violating His holiness and justice (Romans 3:23-26). God does not excuse our sins, but He has inflicted the penalty for those sins on the innocent man Christ. This substitution avails to us when we place our faith in Christ and apply His gospel to our lives. Thus the substitutionary, atoning death of Christ was made necessary by (1) the sinfulness of man, (2) the holiness of God, and (3) God's law requiring death as the punishment for sin. This is why there can be no salvation outside Jesus Christ.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Brown, Driver, Someone and Someone else

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Why does God's word need to be "divided". Never understood the application of that word. What about the wisdom to rightly "unify" God's word? Even that doesn't make sense.

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

KJV 2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NET 2Ti 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

The word there in 1Tim means

Accurately is a figure of speech that literally means something like "cutting a straight road." In regard to the message of truth, it means "correctly handling" or "imparting it without deviation.

Another reason why I don't like the KJV. Thanks for bringing this up

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

I like it because the word meanings are much more expressive, like Spanish. It has a deeper feel and I like that. For instance, in Spanish - Thank you is "de nada" - meaning, "It is nothing."

Much more expressive in the KJV and I love it!

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

Adam is a good example of why I don't and why I don't think it is more expressive but confusing. The greek might be more expressive but the KJV attempt at translation in our modern english world is not

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

IMO, the larger percentage of the text is good. I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes I use other translations to get a better idea of what is being said, but, overall, I don't need to do that. It's written on a fifth grade reading level, maybe that has something to do with it. :heeheehee

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

The irony is in my experience people who aren't well educated have a hard time with the KJV. The thees and thous trip them up, yet other translations such as NKJV are supposed to be harder to read

Re: Where do I Belong? Part II
 

It is a little weird, I guess, but they are harder for me to read. I don't know what it is about it, but there isn't a flow like I feel with the KJV. I suppose it could be personal preference, I don't know.

In the KJV, I can catch a word, a thought or a phrase, in the NT, that I remember seeing in the OT and vice versa. It isn't that obvious to me in other translations, so I don't like that.