Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Why do some Apostolics have such an extreme hatred for Reformed Theology? I read where one member of this forum used the term Reformed as almost a slander? Cannot an Apostolic be one God and still hold to the beliefs of Reformed Theology without being cast out?

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Because RCC and Apostolica have much more in common.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Reformed theology especially that of Calvinists makes God out to be hateful and unjust. It's totally contrary to God's character.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Seriously, Mizpeh? Shocking statement.

The portrayal they have of God (reformed) is that of a loving, gracious pursuer who loves us when we don't deserve it. Hateful?

Perhaps our own hatred and idol worship and over-emphasis of free will has been projected here?

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Their portrayal of God as a loving, gracious pursuer toward the underserving is only for a few not for all.

A God who arbitrarily chooses people to go to hell based on a whim? What kind of love is that? Not the kind we find in 1 Cor 13. What kind of justice is that? If it's unjust by our standards then it must be wrong since God's standards of justice are much higher and purer than ours.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

AMEN. Calvin may have lived in a difficult time, yet he condoned murder, even encouraged it. If you believe God "hates" sinners, as REFORMED teaches, why not join him in murdering them sooner rather than later? Burn 'em at the stake, since they are to burn anyway?

God has not created billions of His image, as fuel for a torture chamber or for kindling, expand REFORMED to cover all of those that Jesus came to save, then we have starting point.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

:thumbsup

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I cannot see how reformed thoughts of Calvinism make God out to be loving when they claim He ordained that some people will go to hell and not be able to go to glory, thereby disallowing their own decision and choice due to predestination.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

The Reformed tradition does have its advocates who seem to take the whole Predestination thing too far. Since we are dealing with a fundamental paradox here, we need to approach the issue with a sense of balance.

For me, the thing that most OPs seem to "hate" about Reformed theology seems to be the issue that God is Sovereign. God chooses His saints, not your dress code check lists. That puts a lot of OP pastors out of work.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

The Sovereignty of God is a testimony to the Grace of God!

My friends whom the Lord has used in helping me to overcome the most were people who attend churches with a strong emphasis on "Reformed Theology."


If not for the Grace of God, I don't know where I'd be. Definitely not saved and that is for sure!

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

:thumbsup

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Oh please. When people say "Calvinism" they aren't staking their record for Calvin's. It represents ideas that expand even beyond John Calvin.

There are ugly skeletons in all theological movements. Study up on your Church History -- including Modern Pentecostalism.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I get the portrayal of God as a loving, gracious pursuer from the Story.

How do I reconcile that "he shows mercy on whom He will show mercy?" I can't pretend to understand God's sense of justice. Nor do I fully prescribe to the length of five-point TULIP Calvinists. I lean more on their understanding of God's sovereignty though -- and that does seem cruel or mean. And who am I to judge God's ways anyway?

I did recently listen to an incredible sermon ("Is God In Control?") by Tim Keller that took probably what was theologically Calvinism, but preached it on a faith/heart level into a message that broke through my heart and gave me great peace.

As far as this statement:
If it's unjust by our standards then it must be wrong since God's

Really think about what you're saying. Do you really believe that? Because we find something unjust, God must find it MORE unjust? That's not even a logical statement, let alone one considered by a God with divine prerogative.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

It's often been said that what Luther and Calvin did was to "return the Church to Augustine..."

Most of the debates surrounding Reformed Theology - both in the 16th Century and the 21st Century - can also be found in Augustine's debates with Pelagius.

It all really comes down to that age old debate between Free Will and Determinism. Even the pre-Christian pagan philosophers of Greece and Rome disputed these points.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Pel, I too struggle with the more 'orthodox' view of Calvinism (TULIP), at least on all points. But I look back and realize we've done just what Calvin predicted, which is point the issue of salvation back on us, and the story less about God and more about us.

The issue of free-will and predestination is an interesting one to me, and one easy to dismiss. But after taking a few history, humanities and philosophy courses -- it became apparent to me that what sends us to shivers in the 21st Century West, was not that shocking of a message to the rest of the world for the majority of time. The issue of election, for example, would not have bothered the far majority of antiquity. The form of free-will we have today is sort of nuanced, reflective of humanism, capitalism, selfishness even. The more I thought about this, the more I realized my immediate shirking away from the idea of God "working all things for my good" may be a contemporary sensibility instead of heresy.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

As much as I detest legalistic dictatorship, saying God simply ordains some for hell is just as wrong, if not beyond that, to me. I never said I hate reformed theology, either. lol.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Blume, not all who "buy into" the Sovereignty of God understand the "double predestination" idea of God damning people to hell. But if it were true, nor do I feel in a place to judge the Almighty. Who am I?

I too have a philosophical discomfort with the notion that God would select some for hell. But I take great comfort in that he elected me, he called to me, he showed grace to me.

I'd flirt more with "New Calvinism" but even then, not really caring about fitting either label. I've learned much from my Calvinist brothers in the last year. Much. They've taught me a great deal about our gracious father. The idea of a mean tyrant is ironic, because it's a sharp contrast to how I saw God before. His work and act is that much more gracious.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

That God "ordains" some to Hell is a common misunderstanding of Reformed/Calvinist theology. God does not need to ordain any go to Hell as we are all already going to Hell.

It also does not say that God "arbitrarily" picks some to save. Anyone can see from a basic reading of God's Word that he is not arbitrary in any way.

I don't expect anyone who is not Reformed to become Reformed as it is really offense to our western way of thinking - to say that we have no choice in our salvation tears at everything we believe.

This was my reaction and the reaction of my wife and is the reaction of my non-reformed friends, yet after several years of fighting it I have come to taste the sweetness of what it means to be justified by God's grace - to know that none who are given to Christ will be lost and be able to rest (be still and know that I am God) in the Sabbath that is Jesus Christ.

I better stop now or I will keep on going.

SDG

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Great discussion. Thanks to all who are taking part. Please keep it coming.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

God is not a respecter of persons. So then why would he chose one over the other to save?

I believe that God is sovereign. I believe in predestination according to foreknowledge.

God gave us a conscience to know the difference between good and evil. We understand when something is not right. We can judge whether a doctrine portrays God the way He portrays himself in his word.


I've been blessed by some things that Piper has preached but that doesn't really justify TULIP. I firmly believe that God is in control. But I also believe that he allows us to choose to obey him or disobey him. I don't find this to be in conflict whatsoever.

All of God's prerogatives are dictated by his nature. He cannot go against his own nature. He is just, therefore he cannot be unjust. What I meant by the if something is unjust by our standard, then it must be wrong to God as well since he set the standards of right and wrong and placed that knowledge within us.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

nah. That's fine. Keep going. :thumbsup

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

It is not whether we are judging God or not. But what the bible says about godd not willing that any should perish, and yet willing some will perish. God's word does not contradict truth. And no matter how it may be argued, God is contradicting Himself if He wills some be lost.

To each his own, for sure, but I see no sense at all in the idea.

I would say they perhaps can help us all with grace. If someone takes grace too far, they might have SOME points that are not that extreme that can help others. lol

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

According to Calvinism not really everyone was going to hell since God knew the end from the beginning and predestined some to heaven before their birth.

I never said it was arbitrary. But to know God purposely sends some to hell is the issue, and I will not accept that. As I told Socialite, it contradicts the fact that God does not will that any should perish. I can imagine the mental gymnastics that occur over that verse to get around the obvious. lol

I see that this nothing to do with Western thought. Think of it. God is not wiling that any should perish, but he willingly predestines some to perish??? It flatly contradicts the word.

To each his own. It is a free world. I respect your decision and belief. It's just not for me.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

How perfectly arrogant and self-centered of you and the rest of the elect!! What of the many that are destined to eternal damnation with no hope???? I don't believe Christ came just to give you that sweetness, rather to all. If He wills to choose some, He wills to choose ALL.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

One thing has always bothered me about Reformed theology.
If God predestined everyone, why did we need a Savior?

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Like I said, expand it to all that Jesus came to save, according to 1 Tim. 4:10, and we have some agreement.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Had He not come, nobody would be saved. Just because all will be saved from a sinking ship doesn't mean the rescuers remain on shore.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

It is gracious to save some, when he has the power and resources to save ALL???

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Are you a universalist? If so I can understand your problem with reformed theology.

I notice you have 1 Cor 15:22 as your tag line - do you believe all are saved? If not then how do you understand this scripture?

The very next verse says But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Notice that it is not ALL but those that BELONG to Christ. ie the ones he purchased with his blood. Also John 6:37 says "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." Indecently this was the verse I based my comment "I have come to taste the sweetness of what it means to be justified by God's grace - to know that none who are given to Christ will be lost and be able to rest (be still and know that I am God) in the Sabbath that is Jesus Christ."

Regarding your accusation of arrogance and self-centredness you either have absolutely no understanding of reformed theology or you are purposefully ignoring some of the basic premises. Christ-centredness, NOT self-centredness, is at the heart of reformed theology. Any reformed who was acting arrogant regarding their salvation really has no understanding of the doctrine of justification and when examined would be exposed as not having a correct understanding or reformed theology.
How could anyone who truly believes that while they were still an enemy of God, God sent His Son to die for them, when all they deserved was God's wrath, be arrogant?? The life of Paul is a perfect example of this.

SDG

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

This is where my heart has been turned as of late as well.

I can't fully explain it, nor feel like I have to subscribe to an exhaustive, systematic Calvinism or every letter of the TULIP... but what I keep seeing in the Story is how God is working in this way. It's a comfort.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

God predestined the Savior, too (Galatians 4:4 and 1 Peter 1:11).

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I think that it is a great comfort when we place ALL of these burdens upon Him.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

So a reformed theology statement would be:
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save certain people who were predestined to be saved"?

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Blume, if we read that verse "he doesn't will that any should perish" just literally as we hear it, then none will perish. Period. End of story. If God wills it, that's all there is to it.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I think that they would tend to be wordier than that, but yes, that may sum it up in very simplistic terms.

Being "predestined to be saved" doesn't mean that you are "saved already." You still need to actually "be saved." The "predestination" part of the equation simply speaks of the inevitability of that salvation. It takes nothing away from the sacrifice and the reception of salvation itself when it arrives.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I thought that the whole idea was that God gave us free will to choose?

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Few scattered quotes, and then I will comment. Bear with me:



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There are three other reasons Arminians struggle with Reformed Theology:

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

Blogger, Brian LePort says this:

Good post on this -- at least thought-provoking.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

I find that if I take away the philosophical bias about modern-day free will, I can accept the idea of predestination much better. It's usually an emotional obstacle more than a scriptural one for me.

I agree with others, that it can seem cruel (I've said so previously) while also insisting that it's possible that a) I don't have the right perspective of it b) God's ways are higher than mine, and my judgement concerning what is just in God's actions are slightly ironic and inappropriate even and c) I may be wrong.

I've considered what it means to the biblical text if it's true or false. I've done a lot of viewing the Bible in a story form lately, and it's extremely difficult to shake the idea of God's electing. It's throughout the Story. And after several classes in Humanities and History, it's obvious that modern-day perspectives on free will are dramatically different than the ancients in other generations. In fact, the view of the last couple centuries is unique in the entire scheme of history. That must be taken into consideration as well! The way first century ancients understood free will and the sovereignty of God should matter greatly to us that are concerned with authorial intent.

Re: Hate Of Reformed Theology
 

In the end, I'm not interested in calling myself a Calvinist or Arminianist. I can care less about signing on to theological platforms and defending them until the death. I care more about understanding God's character, receiving His grace that has found me when I was lost and abandoned.

It's interesting many get so upset with Reformed teaching, concerned about licentiousness and passivity. In me, this Story does the exact opposite. I am stirred, humbled, and want to live my life with the same grace I received. I am more spurned on to follow the ways of Jesus. True believing, reception of grace and heart regeneration should produce this IMO.



(P.S. Mizpeh, I'll try to find my notes, but I've seen strong evidence that the insistence on foreknowledge over individual election to be a contradiction of scripture, and in some cases, not even fitting the context -- I'll see if I can't find my old notes.)