Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Universalism claims, in some incarnations, that men will be given a second chance "in hell" to repent and that in fact they will with their sufferings come to God.

As I read this verse I thought about Universalism

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


God has over the years given many the opportunity to repent and turn to God and they have rejected Him.

Here we have a clear biblical case of the judgments of God and in the face of this second chance, rather than accept God they just became all the more belligerent and rebellious. What makes any Universalist believe the judgments of God will force all men to turn to God when they have proven for years they won't?

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

As usual you mis-characterize, Universal Reconciliation, as believing that God tortures his human creation until they finally give up and repent. Can you imagine ANY human being enduring the pain and agony of the traditional hellhole of torment for five minutes much less five day, months or years without surrender??? What sheer goofiness!!

Rev. 16, has already been fulfilled, it accomplished it goal of temporal judgment on the Jews that killed the prophets and the saints right up until the destruction of Judaism in 70 AD. To present this as the final fate of the wicked is just wrong. Jerusalem was the seat of the beast, and it was destroyed accordingly. The "plagues"? Rev. 16, has nothing to do with the finality of mankind.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

I didn't mischaracterize anything. This is a position I heard.

This isn't about eschatology so whether or not it was already fulfilled is irrelevant

Do you believe those put into the Lake of Fire will be restored? Instantly?

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

It is a position that I disagree with, because it mischaracterizes God, many UR's embrace it generally as a transitional position. Few embrace it after fully understanding UR.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Further, since Rev 16 is fulfilled, it is confirmed a temporal judgment, and therefore is not relevant to the final end of mankind.

The Lake of Fire is the final cleansing of the creation, and I do believe that God's fiery presence will instantly remove any and all evil, and death. As mankind clearly sees and understands the holiness of God in its full purity, none will be want to resist, but rather will immediately surrender all wickedness and gladly so.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Again you missed the point I was making. The point was that this judgment did not turn their heats to God, whether it already happened or not. So this is for those that think that is how people will be turned to God in the LOF

So it's painless, guiltless and everyone that ever lived for God could have just done what they pleased because in the end it won't matter

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Of course many of us believe that's what His blood does (removes evil, death) to all who believe :)

Eternal judgment is not a rehab program.

Let's quit fashioning gods after our own liking and choosing, determining things to be "not right" because we don't think it is.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Exactly. We didn't even need the Cross. God is His Sovereignty could have figured something out. That pesky detail in his character called Justice though.

Don't even bother with the Gospel, sparing no urgency to tell others about Redemption. Whether they like it or not, it's coming :)

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

You, my friend, miss the point, the judgment of Rev 16, is not intended to turn folks to God, it is to remove those whose cup was full! Example: Pharoh, Hitler, Saddam and the like.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Please, stop and consider who fashioned "gods after our own liking"? Jesus said, I didn't come to condemn the world, rather to save the world.

I am very content to believe that He has succeeded, I don't need to stretch to reach the conclusions of UR, they are peppered thoughout scripture. And this view is much more in agreement with the character and the nature of our Heavenly Father.

Eternal judgment is not a rehab program.

Which would you approve of, a father that kills his children because they don't follow his values, or the Heavenly Father that "rehab's" even the worse of His children?? Which is more like God?

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Whether it was intended for that purpose or not is beside the point. The point is rather than turn to God they cursed God...Besides why argue the point if you don't believe the Lake of Fire is judgment

However IF that is not what is intended why even bother to mention they did not repent?

Rev 16:9 Thus people were scorched by the terrible heat, yet they blasphemed the name of God, who has ruling authority over these plagues, and they would not repent and give him glory.
Rev 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast so that darkness covered his kingdom, and people began to bite their tongues because of their pain.
Rev 16:11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their sufferings and because of their sores, but nevertheless they still refused to repent of their deeds.

But how does "Tormented day and night" fit into your idea that they are instantly, painlessly, guilt free, forced to be good and love God against their will?

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Jesus doesn't have to condemn anyone. They are all already condemned

Joh 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

The "lake of Fire" is judgment, BUT WHAT IS ITS PURPOSE IS:

Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY!

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness" (Mal. 3:2-3).

The apostle Paul tells us how this spiritual Refiner's fire will purify and save us:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

We all will be "judged" according to our works. ALL FIRE OF GOD IS FOR THE SAME PURPOSE TO PURIFY. God has used temporal judgment on many in the earth to keep His creation on track, but when applies the "refining fire" none will resist, and ALL will submit. When "SEE" HIM, and "KNOW" HIM, they will love HIM.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Of course they are condemned? But by whom? Consider the follow response of JESUS, when the adulter was CONDEMNED by the religious leaders:

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

IT SEEMS FROM JESUS' RESPONSE THAT THE "condemned already" COMES FROM MAN NOT HIM.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

I didn't see any evidence in the above that all fires are the same fire.

And fires destroy. That is how they "purify". How is God going to purify the earth? He is going to destroy it with fire just as He did once with water and started over

2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Thus God will restore all things by destroying the earth and re-forming it. But in this the earth is purified by destroying everything on it

Another case is where those that are evil are destroyed

Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Same greek word used here
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,

And here
Rev 18:8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Rev 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."

And here
Act 19:19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. Fire always "purifies". In the above, the fire does not purify those books. It destroys them thus purifying the people who gave them up.

When the wicked are destroyed they are removed from the righteous people and from the earth God wants to reform

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

The acts in Rev 16:9 are also said to be judgment

The word judged means

To separate, distinguish, discriminate between good and evil, select, choose out the good. In the NT, it means to judge, to form or give an opinion after separating and considering the particulars of a case

Thus the lake of fire was not reformation. It was separation. Those dead were separated from the rest as we see through out Matthew 13 and other chapters

One must still explain what this means
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Devil is thrown into the lake of fire. Now here would be a good place to say "and they were instantly made clean and in love with God" but it does not

The word torment here means
an examination by torture, torment. To torture, afflict with pain, vex, harass.

And this was to occur ":day and night" indicating not an instantaneous event but a process that continues

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Please please tell me you are not saying that Jesus meant "He that believes NOT is condemned by man already"?

The context shows Jesus is speaking of Spiritual things. One does not need to condemn the unbeliever because their own unbelief condemns them. Jesus is saying whoever believes in Christ is NOT condemned by the Pharisees??!?! No that does not make sense. No it's one's lack of faith that condemns them or is the reason why they are condemned "Because he has not believed"

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

They are condemned because they refuse to come to the light

The world is condemned. Believers are not
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

Of course, I believe those that have not yet believed in the Lord, are condemned to judgment. We the elect will not be condemned to purifying judgment along with the world.

Just wondering how you would handle the adulterer that was not condemned, even though she had sinned and there is no recorded that she had repented.
In that context she was apparently only condemned by men? Maybe she was forced? Therefore, not guilty??

Re: Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism
 

I disagree that God is going to destroy the physical earth. Rather He is going to REDEEM the earth, that means He is going to purify the earth, and all that is in it. He will remove all evil and wickedness from His creation and make it pure. I Cor. 3:13-15, is clear that humanity will be saved, and evil will be burned up.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

Don't know why traditional interpertation, has such a problem with God SAVING AND RESTORING ALL THOSE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE?