Apostolic Friends Forum - The poor in America

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The poor in America

This is a little old, (2007), but I could not find anything newer.

•Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three bedroom house with one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
•Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
•Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two thirds have more than two rooms per person.
•The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
•Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
•Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
•Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
•Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...rty-in-America

Re: The poor in America

Not so poor...
I would like to see the numbers on homeless for last year compared to year of this study I believe it has increased.

Re: The poor in America

Poor is a relative term. Most people would not be "poor" if they left out all the unnecessary items such as Cellphones, Gaming consoles, TV, Internet, Computers, Car loans every 5 years, etc.

People in America do not really know what poor is.

Re: The poor in America

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Add...3-30-2011.html

Quote:

It was beginning to seem that the phrase "social justice," at least in evangelical circles, was becoming a four-letter word. Just over a year ago, Glenn Beck—evangelicalism's favorite Mormon—started a campaign against the word when, on his radio show, he brazenly announced that Christians who found the phrase on their churches' websites should flee their churches. It was a code word, he announced, a sort of shibboleth that showed the church was really a clandestine center of leftist political agitation.

Although it's difficult to decipher what he was thinking when he made this claim—and defended it for weeks—I imagine he had in mind the kind of small, mainline churches that feature Jim Wallis book clubs. Wallis, in fact, became his foil in the fallout. But one church I feel confident that Beck did not have in mind when he made his pronouncement is Redeemer Presbyterian, one of New York City's largest churches.

The word "justice" is all over Redeemer's website, including in an advertisement for this past Monday night's conversation about justice featuring Redeemer's pastor and best-selling author Dr. Tim Keller and MSNBC's Martin Bashir.

I had the opportunity to attend the event at the New York Society for Ethical Culture, and as the evening's activities commenced it was announced that Bashir was sick and would not be in attendance. His replacement, we were told, would be Fox News religion correspondent Lauren Green.

There was an audible sigh of disappointment at the news that Bashir, whose aggressive interview with Rob Bell had earned him some serious evangelical street cred, would not be asking the hard questions of Keller. Green acknowledged the slight awkwardness of a Fox News correspondent, as opposed to one from MSNBC, talking about social justice. She joked that her affiliation would make her an excellent devil's advocate in the conversation. READ MORE IN THE LINK

A side comment, given by Keller in a separate context:

Quote:

Most Christians get their notion of justice not from reading the bible... but from their political party.

Re: The poor in America

Very relevant (and recent) article/interview as it relates to this post:

Quote:

Perhaps the best exchange of the evening came when Lauren Green asked, "Who are the poor?" The poor in the United States, she noted, seem much better off when compared to poor people in developing countries. She added that compared to Donald Trump, even she could be considered poor. To me, listening to this question made me feel the way onlookers must have felt when Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor?"

Keller's first response, which came quickly, referred to the government's designation that a family of four living on less than $23,000 is the marker for poverty. But he jumped from that formulaic answer to profundity. "In the Bible," he said, "poverty is seen in terms of power."

Re: The poor in America

more...

Quote:

If poverty is seen in terms of power, than those with less power are more often excluded and thus in need of justice. The Bible, Keller continued, doesn't offer a bright line that marks the beginning of poverty. Rather, we should think of poverty and power in terms of a scale, and our job, he said, is not to look up the scale with envy, but down the scale with grace.

Grace, as it turns out, is Dr. Keller's motivation for justice. His latest book, Generous Justice, which he noted offers more in-depth answers to many of the night's questions, is subtitled "How God's Grace Makes Us Just."

This is precisely how Dr. Keller manages to bridge the widening gap between those on the left and right, even within Christianity. The emphasis doesn't need to land on either personal salvation or social justice; rather, according to Keller, one should flow into the other. This is a reclaiming of the term "social justice" for those who needed to see it reclaimed, and a reminder of the grace behind the biblical call to justice for the rest of us.

Re: The poor in America

Very few true poor folks in USA.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1049889)

I might post this on facebook, curious of the response.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1052145)

Very few true poor folks in USA.

You must not have read what I just posted.

Poverty is quite relative. When we talk about poverty in terms of Western living, we must define it in that context. When we talk about in terms of the world, we must define it in that context. Either way, as Keller says, in the West poverty is more about the powerful and the powerless.

Re: The poor in America

If everyone uses the more worldly definition of poverty, one would have to live in a cardboard box, a homeless shelter or otherwise be destitute to be considered "poor."

As Keller says, it reminds me of the question asked of Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

Re: The poor in America

Seems they most "poverty" issues are lifestyle choices, at least here in USA.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1052159)

Seems they most "poverty" issues are lifestyle choices, at least here in USA.

Respectfully, that's extremely ignorant of you to suggest that... But unfortunately, it's a common talking point, and thousands say the same thing. I encourage you to take a closer look at poverty, not just the images of cardboard signs at the street lights.

Re: The poor in America

After looking at people outside of the US, I never see "poverty" here.
I do see people who are poorer than others.
Some of it is due to bad luck.
The rest is due to poor choices.
Either by the person or their parents.
In this country one has to choose to be "poor".
Disclaimer: this does not apply to the mentally ill, who used to receive help, but now must not have their civil rights violated.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1052174)

You know, AEGSM, I used to think just like you, until I got my hands dirty with the poor in my City. Until I was involved in Poverty Studies. I put down my defensive (which I couldn't explain at the time) and listened. And I learned a lot just by listening.

And if this all boils down to a choice -- and if that choice was a parent's, what difference does it make -- it wasn't the the child's. Many people didn't choose to be a black male, growing up in South Central, in an environment where survival, what color you wore and how well you could scrap were far more important than what study group you were apart of. They didn't choose to have no awareness of success, other than the rap videos they grew up with. It's easy to say "choose to turn the channel" and "choose to be positive" but that takes no account for living in the middle of it, and it being the only way of life you know. Nor the long-time, blue-collar worker, who cared for his young family, until he lost his leg in an accident. (Short-term disability is short-term). You could argue using drugs us a choice, but drug addiction is a little more complex than just calling it a choice. Abused families finding their only way out of horrid situations, on the cold sidewalks. No one chooses poverty. It is a plight, a nightmare, a dungeon. Sure, there are those remarkable stories about an inner city kid making his way to Harvard or a junkie coming clean and hitting the big time. And there are those darlings from Slumdog Millionaire that make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy for having done their bit to help. For every success story of breaking away from poverty’s death knell, there are thousands, millions even, of stories that are too distressing to cover on the six o’clock news. It’s the children that always move me.

The children are victims at best, lost causes at worst. It’s the children who are casualties in this war against poverty. Isn’t it our moral imperative to reach out to those weaker than us? Should we not band together to, at the very least, protect the children?

The fact is, we have this myth of choice because of a cognitive dissonance -- society's response and disconnect between the success we believe is possible and the existence of homelessness, poverty and broken families. We worship the American Dream. The result is stigmatization, shame and a plethora of one-liners to dismiss the rift raft.

Furthermore, the gracious response would not be to buy into the worldly American Dream, self-righteously condemning those who aren't good enough, just aren't trying hard enough, are just not making enough right choices, and to bypass them on a Jericho road. Who is my neighbor? Jesus didn't give an income list. He never qualified why they were poor. The OT commandments never did either. This is American worldliness at its best and it's a disease in our churches.

Let's live gracious, be gracious, understand poverty as something greater than making a few extra bucks, but as an oppressive demon of hopelessness, despair, powerlessness and one that leaves its victims stranded on the periphery of life, marginalized and put out. Jesus called, us who were strangers, into His house, clothed us, fed us, called us friends, children even... and we were broken and undeserving. This is why we extend that same graciousness to others.

Re: The poor in America

And that long post probably killed this thread. But I hope not. I hope someone reads it and joins the conversation. I also posted some snippets from the Keller interview with Fox (knowing most folks will not open a link -- I don't usually either).

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052163)

Respectfully back, I stand by my statement. I don't mean all but a good amount is by lifestyle choices. Haven't seen one motivated hard working person not make it.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1052206)

Respectfully back, I stand by my statement. I don't mean all but a good amount is by lifestyle choices. Haven't seen one motivated hard working person not make it.

Fair enough.

#1 I think there are hundreds of thousands hard-working people not making it. I've met many of them. And for those who are indeed lazy, I have compassion knowing their laziness is a symptom of their impoverishment and oppression. I find ways to provide for immediate needs, feeding them, restoring dignity to them -- that they are made in the Image of God, and then helping bring hope to their dim eyes.

#2 I think your perspective is quite narrow in how you define poverty.

#3 You've bought into the worldly deception spawned by the so-called American Dream.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052213)

I agree with we should try to reconcile all people even l;axy no working bums, but that is not the issue. I did say "that I know of". I guess my profession exposes me to certain mindsets and people that other may not experience.

The thread is "poor in america" listing material gains etc... that even poor have. That's what I responded to. there's spiritual poverty, influence poverty, power poverty, as you posted.. etc....

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052134)

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Add...3-30-2011.html

A side comment, given by Keller in a separate context:

bump for this article and discussion.

Re: The poor in America

How do you deal with the scripture in these cases.

"If none would work, neither should he eat".

"He that will not provide for his family, is worse than an infidel".

Aren't exact quotes, but I'm in a hurry!

Re: The poor in America

Dont tell the folks that protest giving to the poor in other countries. THey always say, "Why are we giving to other countries and not taking care of the needy people here first?"

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1052332)

Context helps in those verses. At least one of those verses you referenced was to a specific situation (1 Thes) where Paul's emphasis on the imminent return of Christ caused people to lose all control, quit their jobs, ignore their families, leave trash in the streets, etc... Paul corrects this in his second letter (2 Thes) with more of a "work like he's not coming for 1,000 years, live like he's coming today" speech.

The other verse you reference is from Paul's letter to Timothy, dealing with widows.

I have close to 100 other verses that deal with the taking care of the poor, including entire systems of OT government set-up to do just that -- and judgment when that did not happen.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2 (Post 1052338)

Dont tell the folks that protest giving to the poor in other countries. THey always say, "Why are we giving to other countries and not taking care of the needy people here first?"

Does it have to be either/or?

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052345)

Does it have to be either/or?

To them apparently so. I guess until all the injustices here are solved, they believe we should let others be. Don't worry, I can't fathom it either. I guess its their beliefs and something caused their beliefs to be that way.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2 (Post 1052355)

Yeah... it's the danger of bumper sticker logic.

Though, my opinion about committing US Govt and Military to Libya (for example) falls more into the line of "how" we should help, not if we should -- and who the "we" is :)

Re: The poor in America

The libs apparently don't care about the poor but pretend to. We have twice as many on food stamps, assistance and unemployed as we did during Bush. Obama makes choices that feed his ego and hurt the poor.

Libs have a fancy way of ignoring facts that are inconvenient. With sky rocketing divorce rates and high rates of single adult bread winners in homes, we have instant access to poverty.
30 years ago when the majority of homes with children had 2 adult parents, if one loses a job, we didn't have instant poverty or foreclosure. Now some guys pay child support and miss their rent payments. The structure of the home shows how bad choices feed poverty.

Re: The poor in America

Thank the Lord for food stamps and assistance

Re: The poor in America

Thank God when it's done away with.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by coadie (Post 1052611)

Define the majority of children having 2 adult parent homes? What percentage was it? 51%? Compared to 49% today?

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1052669)

Define the majority of children having 2 adult parent homes? What percentage was it? 51%? Compared to 49% today?

It is ok if you don't have a reference to share to back up your example and question.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by coadie (Post 1052676)

It is ok if you don't have a reference to share to back up your example and question.

I was asking for the precentage and explaining that I wanted to know it because saying majority and minority doesn't mean much if there is only a 2% increase.

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052344)

I think you are trying to minimize these scriptures.

2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th:3:7: For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th:3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th:3:9: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th:3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th:3:11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th:3:12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th:3:13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

and

1Tm:5:1: Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Tm:5:2: The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Tm:5:3: Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Tm:5:4: But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Tm:5:5: Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Tm:5:6: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Tm:5:7: And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Tm:5:8: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1Tm:5:9: Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Tm:5:10: Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

In context they read just as they do when they stand alone.

Re: The poor in America

And I think you are trying to minimize, ignore or otherwise explain away these verses:

Deut. 26:5-9. The Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted us, and imposed hard labor on us. Then we cried to the LORD, the God of our fathers, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our affliction and our toil and our oppression; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror and with signs and wonders; and He has brought us to... this land flowing with milk and honey.

Luke 4:16-21. And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read... "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Ps. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor.

Is. 25:4. For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress.

Ps. 10:14. The unfortunate commits himself to You; You have been the helper of the orphan... O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear to vindicate the orphan and the oppressed.

Is 41:17. The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them Myself, as the God of Israel I will not forsake them.

Luke 6:20-21. Blessed are you who are poor, for yours in the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

James 2:5. Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
Prov. 22:9 He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.

Deut. 15:10. You shall give generously to [your poor brother], and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Jer. 7:5-7. "For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever."

Is. 58:10. "And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday. And the LORD will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; and you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail."

Luke 14:12-14. "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 12:44. "Sell your possessions and give alms; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

Is. 10:1-3. "Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"

Luke 1:52ff. [Mary's Magnificat.] "He has brought down rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were hungry. He has filled the hungry with good things; and sent away the rich empty-handed."

Ezek. 22:29,31. "The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice... Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."

Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.

1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Luke 6:33ff. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same."

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Mt. 6:2-4. "When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

Re: The poor in America

And these ones...

Mt. 6:24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money."

1 Tim. 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

Gal. 2:9ff. Recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John... gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. They only asked us to remember the poor-- the very thing I also was eager to do.

Lev. 19:15. "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly."

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need.

Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.

Eph. 4:28. Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.

2 Cor. 8:9. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Prov. 14:31. He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who is gracious to the needy honors Him.

Mt. 25:31-46.

Re: The poor in America

In fact, there are over 300 verses concerning God's attitude, our response and judgment toward the poor. Should I post them all??

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1052703)

I think you are trying to minimize these scriptures.

2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th:3:7: For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th:3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th:3:9: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th:3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th:3:11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th:3:12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th:3:13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

and

1Tm:5:1: Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Tm:5:2: The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Tm:5:3: Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Tm:5:4: But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Tm:5:5: Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Tm:5:6: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Tm:5:7: And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Tm:5:8: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1Tm:5:9: Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Tm:5:10: Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

In context they read just as they do when they stand alone.

Actually, I didn't minimize them, I provided the historical context... it's called exegesis. You have to know a little of the problem Paul is addressing to understand what appears to be a prescriptive word. Otherwise, you join the ranks of the spiritually ignorant that call men who lose their jobs sinners (just one example of how damaging poor exegesis is). Truthfully, though Biblical historians have helped us piece together what may have been going on in Thessalonica, we really don't know for certainty.

And the context of 1 Timothy is most certainly concerning widows. Read it again. Irresponsible widows perhaps? Either way, our sense of God's grace comes out in our work, and we can view work in such a way as fulfilling God's goodness through us, so there are no advocates that people should not work (who are able). The disabilities for some are mental, emotional and, of course, physical.

"Break my heart for what breaks yours..."

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite (Post 1052713)

Some commentary on 1 Tim 5 from IVP:

Quote:

From the time of Israel's inception, God has been known as the defender of widows (Deut 10:18; 24:17). "Justice" among God's people was measured in part by the treatment of widows (Is 1:17). God's compassion for the widow became the covenant community's responsibility, which the early church naturally took up (Acts 6:1; Jas 1:27).

The present passage is the Bible's most extensive treatment of the subject. Through instructions to Timothy, Paul addresses the issue of community support for widows. At the same time, the widow is encouraged to make positive contributions to the church's ministry.

The passage reflects a fairly advanced system of care--a "roll" or "list" of widows eligible for support (v. 9). But the system was being abused; families of widows were not shouldering their responsibility, thus placing financial strain on the church. Then certain younger widows, who may have managed to get on the list, were threatening the church's reputation by involvement with the false teaching and scandalous behavior. The instructions address three related topics: the identification of the honorable widow, family responsibility for widows, young widows.

This shows that there was a common system in place for the care of widows. That system was being abused. Families weren't caring for widows. Younger widows were abusing the system. There seemed to be a pretty big mess here that Paul was trying to help. That's pretty good context in how to eavesdrop into this letter.

Re: The poor in America

I believe we have ventured very far afield from the original point.
I believe there are almost zero "poor" in America.
Poor in the context which the Bible uses.
Poor as in "starving".
The stats in my original post show this.

Do you believe this or not?

Re: The poor in America

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1052846)

I believe we have ventured very far afield from the original point.
I believe there are almost zero "poor" in America.
Poor in the context which the Bible uses.
Poor as in "starving".
The stats in my original post show this.

Do you believe this or not?

Indeed, but conversations aren't always linear :)

And no, I do not believe that statement, nor do the stats matter. Did you read what I posted concerning the Keller interview just this week? Poverty is relative. Poverty is also multi-dimensional, and means far more than just people who can't afford the basic necessities like food and shelter.

Those stats are part and parcel to the problem of the worldiness of the American Dream. It's Social Darwinism at best... if you aren't succeeding, you aren't trying hard enough. I have a home, two cars, a couple vacations a year, nice gadgets and toys but my conscience can rest because the guy on the other side of town that has no money for dinner, the woman who feels hopeless and the little boy who wonders when the cycle will end -- they aren't poor per that stat, so I can kick my legs up, feel good about myself and just tell them to "get with it" and "work harder."

Like the question asked to Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

Re: The poor in America

It's very unusual for a thread to deviate from the original post. :):)
The problem that I have with Keller is that whenever you remove statistics and measurements from anything, then it becomes all about feeling.
So, you can call anyone poor, it just depends on your "feeling".

Do you know what the number 1 predictor is for a "poor" household?
The lack of a father.
Again, bad choices.
Also to redefine "poor" as a lack of power, encourages the wrong type of mentality.
It encourages a victim mentality instead of a mentality that I can change my life with better choices.
As one who was raised up "poor", (by the governments definition), I can state that is what I believe.