Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

To those of you who believe that one must 1) Repent; 2) Be baptized; and 3) Be filled with the Holy Spirit only by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.......


......it was easier to be right with God in the Old Testament when all you had to do was obey the Levitical law and drag animals to the Tabernacle to be sacrificed.

Why? Because there are some people who try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to "Get the Holy Ghost" and just never can speak in tongues. For those people, it would be easier to just kill a goat.


And to those of you who believe that a person is saved at repentance but that a person isn't filled with the Holy Spirit until they display the initial sign of speaking in tongues, it would be easier to just be one of the "Holy men of God" that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and just go kill goat.

Why? Because there are people that try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to be filled with the Spirit so they can have the power everyone else does, but they just can't pull it off.



According to these beliefs, maybe the New Covenant isn't all that great.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Easier to obey the 613 commandments of the law than to believe if God said he would give you the Holy Ghost, He will do it? On what planet would obeying commandments be easier than just accepting the promises of God and waiting for those to happen?

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Are you referring to your self or someone else in your post? I have seen that happen before.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

It would be easier to obey 5,000 commandments that were possible than one commandment that was impossible.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Actually the bible said it is a gift from God. So that is more on the level that all we have to do is believe and ask for it. I'm suspicious your point is different from your post.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Were all 613 of those laws from God?
If so... how many pertained to the job of the priests and weren't something the average Israelite had to keep with in his daily life?

Just wondering. It seems that your post probably isn't a fair depiction. But... you never know.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

I'm speaking for my cousin who sat at my dinner table and wept as he told me of his 35 year fruitless quest to be filled with the Holy Spirit and when shown the truth of God's Word said, "I just thought I was never good enough."

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Yes, all we have to do is believe and ask for it. Luke 11 says so. But many believe, many ask, but many come up empty on tongues.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

The Holy Ghost isn't a commandment, its a promise. If someone believe Acts 2:38 and does their part, God will do his. Sometimes it takes time, but to give up is to quit believing the promise is already theirs. Faith is about going on what isn't seen, not what is seen. I know its hard because what some preach from the pulpit, but if those would recognize the power of God's promises, and that they never fail; this would not be an issue with the desperate believe who wants to receive the Holy Ghost to be saved from hell. God will save them if they seek Christ Jesus. Its a promise. So if salvation is a promise and the HG is a promise, one can understand God will come through, no matter how long it takes them to "speak in tongues"

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

None of us have come back with eternal life yet either. We still are awaiting heaven. Does that stop us from believing? Jesus said he would come back yet 2000 years have passed by, no return yet.. does that stop us from believing?

I hope our churches get the revelation of God's promises instead of forcing people to seek for tongues when the experience is promised to them if they believe

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

God's word is God's will... right?

Repent and be baptized and after many days... or right away... or whenever I get around to it... you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Its our society and our makeup that wants to KNOW the point that we are 100% saved. Our solace is in Christ and his promises, not even in experiences although they come with it. His Spirit can bear witness with our spirit that we are the children of God by faith.

Good post Aquila.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Yep thats the problem within our churches. Because of the 3 step plan in acts 2:38 and its application thereof, we don't have a doctrine for those waiting to receive their promises and thats the problem. They have every bit of scripture promising their salvation if they continue as we who have received the Holy Ghost do. Its all based on his promises.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

OH MY.. I agree! Though probably not totally on specifics... lol

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Here is my question... Do you works have other spiritual gifts?

1.The Word of Knowledge
2.The Word of Wisdom

Subjective to some point can you verify?

3.The Gift of Prophecy
4.The Gift of Faith - again can you verify?
5.The Gifts of Healings
6.The Working of Miracles
7.The Discerning of Spirits - different views on what is meant and can one verify?
8.Different Kinds of Tongues
9.The Interpretation of Tongues

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Alrighty, I'll rephrase it to fit your theology:

It's easier to obey 5,000 commandments than to see one promise fulfilled that is never fulfilled. And you know, the word "Promise" makes this entire discussion even sillier. So here we have scores of people who have fulfilled the "commandment" part after being told that if they do, they'll get something, and then they beg and beg and beg and beg and beg to receive the "Promise" and never get what they were "promised." Doesn't seem like much of a "promise" to me.

Can you hand me a knife? I'm gonna go kill a bull. It's a lot easier than your "promise."

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Really??? The timing has already been established and mandated. It's God's will that ALL come to repentance. The only thing that remains is man's desire which is fulfilled when he calls upon the name of the Lord.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Exactly. That doesn't make a bit of sense, does it? "Hey guys, it's December 25, let's open the gifts I promised you."








"You know guys.....I don't think you're ready for your gifts. Let's wait until Independence Day next year."

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

The BIG problem with this subject of the administration and giving of the Holy Ghost to the believer lays within the numerous teachings of in full gospel circles.\Some people have come from main stream denominational churches into the pentecostal churches and have been instructed that they do not have the Holy Ghost because they haven't spoke in tongues. So these wonderful people seek and seek and nothing happens because they have been told they don't have it. The truth of the matter is this. There are some believers who came from a sinner's life style and had a true repetitive experience from the heart and at that time they asked Jesus to come into their heart[ soul] and in most cases He did. The problem is. When something like this happens in a church that don't teach the bible and the giving of the Holy Ghost in the proper contents of scripture then that person even though they could have and would have spoke in tongues at their repetitive experience didn't. Now they are caught up in this advise that they don't have it.
Jesus stated that He would baptise the believer with the Holy Ghost and fire. To be baptised with the spirit of God would be visually then same as being baptised with water. It would mean. To be covered completely or to be totally submerged. So if it is a spiritual baptism then it would mean to be completely over whelmed outwardly as well as inwardly.
This is the best analogy I can give to help understand this.
A person comes to the Lord Jesus and from the heart repents and by faith asks the Lord Jesus to come into his heart. { This would be like a man walking out into a lake of water up to his waist.} Now that the person is in the water what he needs to do is by faith and submission of will fall forward into the water and become totally covered by it.
Your cousin needs to get alone somewhere and involve him self with the Lord in praise and song, lift up his hands toward heaven and allow Jesus to take control of his total being, especially his mind and will. When his human portion of his will is out of the way the Holy Ghost will take over and he shall have that wonderful experience.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

:popcorn2

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

So if Holy Spirit baptism is a requisite for salvation, we now have salvation being given at a "certain time," like this carrot dangling in front of the new believer?

The fact is Christ already did the work and has invited us in by grace through faith. This notion that you just keep trying and eventually God will wake up and save you is bull....... oney.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

:blah

All the cute little tag lines we say, but when viewed in how they are practiced it is not so.

I also believe it's a promise. So what that means is, Spirit Baptism is something Jesus would love the Church to have for mission, and there's no use being anxious about it, saying Acts 2:38 is a command (but then qualifying the Holy Spirit part despite pleading people to "get saved" and come to the front and receive the Spirit)....

We say so many things to smooth this out, but it's like one of those shirts that come pre-packaged... some of those creases just aren't coming out.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

pretty much like your view.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

So when did you receive eternal life or your reward? On what day did you make it to heaven?

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

OH man, that was soooooooooooo good.

Knee slapper. :rooting

My view is bathed in scripture, the entirety of the Story, and is dependent on the cross. Yours is not much better than those self-mutilating Judaizers trying to qualify God's grace by all the extra "filthy rags" they can throw on. Yours has no focus on the cross, except an after-thought. Just talk in tongues... and now just keeping trying really hard and maybe when you die God won't throw you in hell.

I say, to hell with that false doctrine.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Yep you apparently don't understand God's promises in the way I'm seeing them. He never fails on his end, NEVER. Tongues or not tongues yet, you are going to get everything you need to be ready to enter heaven, if you continue to trust in Him.

Sort of like the disciples saying, JEsus show us everything NOW.. Jesus says you are not able yet. Or the believer saying, I want all truth now, yet Jesus says the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.

Amazing what patience and trust in this book would actually do if apostolics would practice it in these situations.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Amen to the bolded.

But in practice, and even in the fine print of Apo theology, this is not the case.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

That took courage!!:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

I believe in the hearts of many earnest believers, it is the case. But we as the church must speak for salvation as a whole, all of it, including justification and sanctification. Since the new birth has been mostly associated with justification, the idea of it being a process as well as an event has been lost somewhere, except in the pages and minds of the PCI and those who have earnestly followed their mindset after realization of this problem.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

I'm sorry to offend... but I get weary of these Jesus + (FILL IN THE BLANK) teachings that offend the Cross. Tired of these wacky theological systems that are arrived at by experience, then eisgesis as the Text get's manipulated, molested and raped, stretched out so far it looks like the Prof. Clump trying on a tutu.

If people could just step back and listen to themselves sometimes. Are you sure we are believing the same Gospel?

"If any man preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed."

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Apostolics don't preach Jesus +.. they preach acts 2:38 is the way to Jesus, the response to his gospel. Baptism is not in addition to Jesus, its putting into Jesus' death

The HG baptism is not an addition to Jesus, its experience Jesus' promise of empowerment.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

You are right. Everything is at the door of Justification, ironically the most powerful work of the Cross (us being made right before God). We've bottled everything else in our theology up on that doorstep too: discipleship, maturity, gifts of the Spirit, Spirit baptism, disciplines, etc.

It's always Hell or else... even if it isn't said so explicitly anymore. The culture speaks for itself.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

That's just not true. He found His way to us. The Gospel is the work of Jesus past, present and in the future. We accept it the same way Abraham accepted it -- by believing.

Everything else is most certainly an addition if it's looked to as a way of salvation. Jesus Only. Where's the real Jesus Only folks.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

The idea is if one experiences all these things and is still lost, they must not have had everthing. The mindset is, He's still working on me and the goal is heaven. A person has to embrace OSAS to escape the fact that even saved from sin, a person can still be lost eternally if they so choose to be.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

That is true, thats exactly what Peter told them to do. No amount of theology can get past the fact that acts 2:38 is the person's response that they believe the gospel. What Abraham did is embodied in that, when one believes Christ, they repent. Thats part of it!

Jesus said except ye repent, ye will perish. He Himself included this requirement.

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Is that really the goal? Really????

I mean the primary goal is to go to this cool place called Heaven? :)

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

I can tell you all right now. Salvation is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and nothing else. If a person of any church is claiming to be a christian then they must have undergone a spiritual transformation or they are not like Christ and can't claim to be a christian. If someone is teaching that your are saved by keeping the commandments then PAUL SAID.Having begun in faith are you now made perfect by the law,? he then stated, I fear that you have fallen from grace[ Fell out of favor with God} In other words they are not in alignment with the mind and plan of God.
If someone is claiming to be saved it has to be in past tense. That is what faith is. Know you have something even though it has not appeared.Anything outside of that is confessing to being saved at some point in time. If that is the case of a believer then they are not saved at all. I wish people could understand the true doctrine of sanctification instead of misleading people into a hard yoke that they who teach it do even follow>

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

Is that not your goal also? To live with Jesus forever in the New Jerusalem? Why else would you be living this way? If not to accept the gift of eternal life he is giving you?

Re: Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace
 

How does this transformation take place? Magically? At the moment you believe? When you are baptized? These questions are answered in the BIble, if we would read them.