If A Man Die
 

Part 1

The Patriarch Job gaves us teaching on what happens at death.

14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? Job 14:10

That is the question men want answered. When a man dies where is he?

14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, (Sheol) that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:12-13

Job gives the answer of course inspired by the Holy Ghost for our benefit. He says the man that dies lies down and sleeps in Sheol. Job teaches that Sheol is a place where the dead sleep.

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. Job 14:14-15

Note when Job speaks about his death he uses the words "I" and "me". He never thought in terms this was just concerning his body but rather HIMSELF.

He never asks "Where will a mans BODY be". He asks if A MAN die where will HE be.

So we see he says that men lie down and sleep (metaphor for death) until their change comes.

For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living. Job 30:23

It is appointed for men to die. He knew there was a house waiting there in Sheol for all the dead.

Note the imagery concerning where he believed HE HIMSELF would be going at death.

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

Job taught that when a man is in Sheol he makes his bed in darkness. Obviously the bed is not literal but what does a man do with a bed? HE SLEEPS.

Job is instructing us about what happens when a man dies. He sleeps in Sheol, the grave. They go to the bars of the pit which is again also Sheol. So keep in mind that Jesus said the gates of Sheol/Hades would not prevail against the Church!

Re: If A Man Die
 

Part 2

So what we get is a symbolic picture of what happens when a man dies. He goes to Sheol/Hades. This is like what we would consider the common grave of the dead. A place where men are held by spiritual bars or we might say "gates".

This is where we get the phrase "the gates of hades". Once there men sleep the sleep of death symbolized by Job saying his bed was there and he would sleep together with others in THE DUST. So obviously Sheol/Hades is in the ground.

Job expected to be there until his CHANGE came. Any idea when that might be?

He said when a man lies down to sleep there he will rise no more until the Heavens be no more. When might that be?

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev. 6:12-17

Indeed John saw the Heaven departing away when the day of the Lord finally comes! Then will be the time when men can rise again out of death.

Job said he would be in Sheol until his change came.

19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25-26

So the Holy Ghost was showing through Job that his change would come on the day Jesus returns to the Earth!

What change was Job referring to? Was it not the change from mortal to immortal? From corruption to incorruption? Again Job is pointing us to the time of Jesus coming when he will first things first raise the dead!

Re: If A Man Die
 

Part 3

So Job asked:

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

We have seen that Job taught his change would come when his redeemer would stand on the Earth at the last day.

Paul adds more detail.

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor. 15:50-53

In his teaching on resurrection of the dead Paul sounds much like Job. This is the event Job had been waiting for. Now he could be set free from the gates of Sheol/Hades!

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

What is the hope Job spoke of? Was it not to be raised from the dead? Was it not to be set free from the bars of the pit which was Sheol/Hades?

Job taught that all went to this place at death. They slept there together in the dust until the time of their change. They were being held captive by the gates of Sheol/Hades.

Yet our redeemer who Job prophesied would stand on the Earth on the latter day said:


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades/Sheol) shall not prevail against it. Matt:16:18

Paul taught the resurrection was the hope of the believer.

24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Job asked where was his hope? Was it that when he died he would automatically have immortality, eternal life?

No rather Paul explained the believers hope in the resurrection of the dead being performed by our redeemer Jesus Christ when he stands on the Earth at the latter day just as Job prophesied!

One final thought.

It is commonly taught nowadays that Jesus took all the "souls" out of Sheol/Hades when he went back to Heaven and now whenever one dies his soul goes straight to Heaven.

Note what Paul said though in his resurrection teaching.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Sheol/Hades) , where is thy victory?

If one went straight to Heaven as an immortal soul at death why is Paul saying that AT THE RESURRECTION then will be fulfilled the truth that death is swallowed up in victory?

Why does Paul ONLY THEN ask where is the victory of Sheol/Hades?

Obviously the saints who died were still there! They were still in Sheol/Hades that is THE GRAVE until the resurrection just like Job said was the case.

Then Jesus words will be fulfilled that the "gates of Sheol/Hades will not prevail against his Church"!

They will come forth from corruption to incorruption and from mortal to immortal. They will have life instead of death!

So according to Paul until the resurrection at the last day Sheol/Hades still had the victory against the saints. But on that day Jesus himself Jobs and our redeemer will stand on the Earth and will by his authority as the firstborn of the dead use the keys in his ownership of Sheol/Hades to unlock those bars Job taught us about and set his people free from death!

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (Sheol/Hades) and of death. Rev. 1:17-18

So Jesus has not as of yet used those keys and unlocked those gates. But be patient he is coming!

Re: If A Man Die
 

mike do you believe those that are lost are being tormented right now

Re: If A Man Die
 

No, he believes they are asleep.

I will bring my post from the other thread over here which show my views on this.

Re: If A Man Die
 

If a person sleeps, then are they not alive as well at the same time? Your concept is that souls "sleep" upon death. Then when they "LIVE" at the judgment you claim they come out of sleep. Yet you question how there can be LIFE in my view as to how people can LIVE if their bodies slept Yet you believe the soul sleeps, and sleeping necessitates life as well. Would not the soul that is sleeping be necessarily still alive, too? Both views have EXISTENCE involved during your soul sleep and my conscious presence in hell fire. If the soul "sleeps" before judgment, how can the person be made "ALIVE" if sleeping means they are alive, anyway?

You can rephrase it all when it comes to your view so you do not use the term "ALIVE" or "LIFE" when you say they "sleep", but you claim my view shows a soul "ALIVE" with "LIFE" in hell fire. Generally there is no difference in whether or not one is ALIVE in either view if you accuse me of saying the soul is not dead but alive. The point is that whether in hell fire or asleep, they are still in the same state of EXISTENCE.

If you claim my view demands a state of LIFE when it should be DEATH, then your view of soul sleep has the soul just as much ALIVE with LIFE when it sleeps. Are not people ALIVE when they sleep? You see, I can ask you the same questions.

So why does the term "LIVE" occur in reference to the souls who slept that they might be judged if sleeping means LIFE anyway?

The point is that this refers to BODIES. No, bodies do not have a life apart from souls. The body is DEAD without the spirit. When the spirit leaves, so does the soul. The only thing that sleeps is the body. And I claim SLEEP is involved here with the body only because the body shall arise again. Again, DEATH is not non-existence. It is SEPARATION.

A person is ALIVE when there is no separation any more. Technically, death means separation of soul/spirit from the body. Rejoining these would be LIFE.

Your words in that study are offkey. You claim it would be death swallowed up of life if the SOUL was conscious and with the Lord upon death. That is not what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 15. He was speaking in reference to the BODY. When the BODY is made immortal -- NOT THE SOUL -- death is swallowed up of life. Absence from body is presence with the Lord. That meant that should he die he would leave his body and be with the Lord. His soul and spirit departed from his body. That is called death.

Again, do not miss the actual meaning of death. It is not non-existence. It is separation of what is meant to be together. Soul from body - first death. Soul from God - second death. So the soul being in the presence of the Lord is not death swallowed up of life. That concept led to the full preterist thought, for they believe souls slept until AD70 and then at that point they resurrected to eternal life in heaven. Your idea is the same thing basically, only you think the resurrection has not occurred yet. I agree the resurrection has not yet occurred. But I do not agree we get eternal life when we resurrect. We already have it now! Eternal Life is a person! :)

You misconstrued what that scripture stated. Thoughts "perishing" does not mean the soul is no longer functioning in being able to have thought. You are taking that far too literally as though the soul/mind ceases to function or exist.

What about your sleep? Does your mind cease to function? You claim the soul sleeps, and yet you say that is death and thoughts perish at that point. Sleeping is a far cry from the soul ceasing to exist as though the thought process ceases to function.

The Psalmist merely means that all plans and schemes are over. It is not saying the soul ceases to function or exist. Notice Jesus said the SOUL has many plans and schemes when he described the words of the rich man, “and I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry; but God said unto him, Thou fool! this night thy soul shall be required of time.” The Psalm is simply saying such plans are gone.

So then how can they be sleeping? Their souls cease to function in that case, not sleep. Whose soul does not function when it sleeps?

Paul stated that he is present with the Lord should his soul/spirit depart from his body. That is not death being swallowed up of life because the context of death swallowed of life is speaking OF THE BODY. WHEN THE BODY is no longer mortal and puts on immortality THEN death is swallowed up of life.

I thought you believed in the physical resurrection. That is the context of death swallowed up of life in 1 Cor 15. We cannot apply that to anything other than the body being made immortal. How can you say a soul being conscious with the Lord upon leaving its body is "death swallowed up of life" if you believe that is speaking of the resurrected body?

Of course not. The body is DEAD. The soul is present with God immediately upon that death, and is conscious and not asleep. The BODY is said to sleep only in the sense that it shall rise again, and not in the sense that it is still animate

SHEOL/HADES are one and the same place. Hades has fire according to Jesus. What about the fire?

I agree resurrection is what is involved in saying the gates of hell will not prevail against the church...at least in part, anyway. But Paul said absence from his body meant presence with the Lord. That explains it all. And the gates of hell are not referring to the SOUL needing resurrection but the BODY.

Souls are not in the grave. Bodies are in graves. Soul leaves body at death.

Re: If A Man Die
 

"Sleep" is a metaphor for death. When Jesus said Lazarus was "asleep" he meant he was dead.

11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. John 11:11-13

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Verse 14



See what I mean? Sleep in this context does not mean one is alive and dreaming. It means they are dead.

Then the rest of the story of Lazarus confirms none of what you are teaching but rather their hope was Lazarus would be raised at the last day.

11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:24

Re: If A Man Die
 

when the rich man died physically it speaks of him being torment what are your thoughts on this mike are the unrighteous in torment now

Re: If A Man Die
 

No it does not if you dont understand what he meany by what he said. And by the way what about the things Job taught us? No comment? Was he deceived?

Re: If A Man Die
 

Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree SLEEP refers to death. But does that mean the soul ceases to function when one dies? Does that mean the soul does not exist between death and resurrection? Exactly what "death" is speaking of is the issue. What was DEAD in Christ's words? THE BODY.

I do not believe one is alive and dreaming when one is dead. The point I made, though, is that you said LIFE is there if the soul is absent from the body and present with the Lord in the manner I explained it. That made you question me as to how they can LIVE at the resurrection if they are already alive. I stated they are SLEEPING IN BODY ALONE, and conscious in soul and present in soul with the Lord. DEATH is the separation of the soul from the body.

That is speaking of his body alone. And it makes perfect sense.

You see, you did not explain 2 Cor 5's reference to absence from the body and presence with the Lord, but just asked questions and presumed upon our view some idea of "death swallowed up of life". So, instead of asking questions about death swallowed up of life, which you know strictly refers to the BODY resurrection, please explain what Paul meant by saying absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

IN YOUR VIEW there is never absence from the body! You claim the soul sleeps in the body in the grave upon death. You clam resurrection occurs in the future when the SOUL AND BODY rise together. So how can one ever be absent from the body in your view?

Re: If A Man Die
 

I first copied my post from the other thread to answer you here with it. And I did not respond to your initial post here yet.

I agree Job looked forward to resurrection. What has that got to do with sleeping, though? Again, do you believe the soul ceases to even so much as exist? You said it is not actual sleeping as though life is there and one dreams. What is SOUL SLEEP? Is ti cessation of the existence of the soul? Is it the soul ceases to function? If you have answers to these questions, then you have left them out as gaps which are required for us to get your thoughts.

Job knew nothing about afterlife except a resurrection one day. He knew nothing about the state of man after death, whether conscious or asleep. These things were revealed later. They say JOB is probably the first book ever written amongst the books of the bible. Job would not therefore know of Genesis either.

Also he speaks of his HOUSE. Does the soul stay in the body in the grave? Or is this the house for the body? Or is the grave turned into the soul's house instead of the body? Too many holes are in Job's words, which I honestly think Job did not know. So Job did not lie, but he cannot speak about what he does not know. This is in no way proof there is soul sleep. Far from it.

Also, you yourself said SHEOL is the Hebrew word for grave and pit. SHEOL is the realm of the dead. You assume GRAVE is all that sheol meant since the translators said GRAVE is the translation. But look at what SHEOL also means:

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


H7585
שׁאל / שׁאול
she'ôl
BDB Definition:
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7592
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2303c

So insert those definitions in those verses as well. If we consider ONLY "GRAVE", what is it in the verses that suggest GRAVE is the meaning other than the choice to translate the word into "grave"? The Hebrew only said SHEOL, which includes the underworld, and abode of the dead, and place of exile and punishment. Change the word from GRAVE to these others and see nothing else in the verse limits it to grave, anyway.

Re: If A Man Die
 

What he knew nothing about the state of the dead? Unreal! He taught about it with the same confidence any of the inspired writers did. The problem is you cant see that all the teaching on death in the OT no matter from who disagrees with your view.

Re: If A Man Die
 

I would like to see some explanations rather than your "unreal" remarks. Please discuss this in an organized manner and respond to my questions and statements, as I am with yours.

Job knew about resurrection, and that was all. Nothing Job said contradicts anything about a conscious soul existence after death. All he said was that he would go to sheol. What is sheol? The grave? That is one definition, but what about the others? What did Job say aside from the word SHEOL to restrict it to the grave as you insist it is restricted? What is it about the words he said that make SHEOL the grave and not any of the other definitions? It is a far cry from saying there is no conscious existence of the soul upon death than to say Job looked for SHEOL to be his house.

Re: If A Man Die
 

These definitions are given by men who believe in "immortal soul" teaching. They are designed to verify a false doctrine. You have already seen and rejected the Biblical teaching of death.

Death is the loss of the sense of BEING.

You have to get the foundations in place first to understand death and resurrection. Thats why I presented the teachings of Job on IF A MAN DIE.
He knew the truth. Why do you think the book of Job is considered scripture? If he taught false he himself was false.

The Apostle James believed he was a righteos man and the Almighty himself appeared to him and preached the mightiest sermon of all time in his presence!

Re: If A Man Die
 

It is my opinion that those who believe in soul sleep don't properly define man ontologically. Man is ontologically composed of three components:

• Body (Soma Gk.) - The material part of our being, the body.
• Soul (Psuche Gk.) - The word psyche is derived from this Greek word. It denotes our mind and emotions. It is the immaterial self aware part of our being.
• Spirit (Pneuma Gk.) - This word literally translates "breath" as in being our "breath of life". This is the animating force existent within our being.

(Think of hardware, software, and electricity.)

Man's body will age and die, be laid in the grave, and raised again for judgment or to be glorified. Therefore this aspect of our being sleeps.

Our soul will continue on "alive" and "self aware" entering into either Heaven or Hell.

Our spirit (or breath, i.e. life force) dissipates and returns to the God who gave it.

For those who are born again, our spirits were dead but are now one with the Holy Spirit. And so we never truly suffer death. We enter into God's presence alive according to His Spirit dwelling within.

So upon death we experience various realities given our ontological perspective. We sleep with regards to the body. We are in Heaven or Hell with regards to the soul. We return to the very being of God, the one who breathed life into us with regards to our spirit.

So do we sleep upon death? Yes.
Are we in Heaven or Hell upon death? Yes.
Do we cease to exist, our very breath returning to the God who gave it? Yes.

Unless these ontological distinctions are understood categorically with regards to our being one's eschatology regarding death will be incomplete.

Re: If A Man Die
 

When a person starts changing the definitions of words, how can anyone discuss anything with them?

No, I rejected your interpretation of what the passages were trying to relate.

No, death is the sense of loss of being IN THIS PRESENT WORLD as well as separation of soul from body, or soul from God.

I never said anything Job said was false. Here you go again! Repeat what I say, please. I NEVER said Job was false. I said he only knew of resurrection. Also, I implied the only reason you have for saying GRAVE is the translation of SHEOL is the translator's choice, and not the actual context. And when I ask you why the other definitions are forbidden by you in this passage, you claim the dictionary was wrong in those instances.

When a Hebrew or Greek word offers more than one definition of a term, CONTEXT of the passage determines which option to use. I see NO CONTEXT saying anything about the thought being restricted to the grave. Yet, you reveal that your only recourse to stand on the grave is the choice of the term by the translators. This betrays your inability to actually provide a logical answer.

What about GRAVE being an incorrect definition also? If you start claiming definitions in lexicons are incorrect, where do you draw the line? It appears you draw the line with what you personally believe, which is a faulty basis anyway, since it is subjection and not objection whatsoever.

I agree. No one said Job was false. I just asked why GRAVE is your restricted definition when the lexicon provides much more,and you only responded with what is basically, "The other definitions are wrong because I disagree with them."

The reason HELL includes definitions about the abode of the dead is due to the contexts in which the term is found in the entire bible.... since Jesus would not use myths, the rich man and Lazarus story shows a place of conscious torment in hell. Since Jesus mentioned hell has fire as much as the lake of fire has fire, it is a place of suffering.

So, again, what is in the context of Job's words that show how SHEOL can only mean grave?

Re: If A Man Die
 

Right.

We are not getting answers in respect to these facts, and are not getting answers about CONTEXT in Job and alleged implied mythological inferences in Christ.

Re: If A Man Die
 

It just blows my mind how people think they know what happens to us after we take our last breath. There is so much speculation and confusion regarding this subject, and the fact remains, we don't know. None of us do. Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, No-Trib, Hell this, Hell that, Sleep, Torture, Annihilation, Age of Accountability, Death Bed Repentance; no wonder Christians are confused.

Before long, there is so much Spectral mudslinging over this, people don't know want to think. And what usually happens is people get angry, and out comes the "Fear Bag" of Hell.

Religion is polluted with Know-it-All’s who don't know anything, because they haven't been to places they say exist. To be honest, it's almost comical reading this Thread, mainly because of the lack of honesty; Admit it Folks, you don't know!! God won’t strike us down if we confess our ignorance about the Afterlife!! It’s a mystery, always has been, always will be!

Human weakness has always been about the things we can’t touch or see, and God surely isn’t going to take advantage of one of our greatest downfalls. He knows our imagination is a horrible expanse of exaggeration. The only ones who will take advantage of this Weakness are those in Religion!!

Re: If A Man Die
 

NFS,

We can know. Consider you do not believe that much of the bible is true anyway. So why do you even frequent these forums? Some might consider that comical. But I disagree with you, there is enough in the bible about these issues that we can know. The problem is when people get traditional thoughts and refuse to break with them when confronted with scripture. But there is no need for mudslinging, I agree. I just wonder why folks spend time on things that practically have no value rather than issues of the victory of the cross and self denial, and leading of the Spirit.

Re: If A Man Die
 

Well look at the context.

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

Job says the grave will be HIS (not my bodies) house. He says he will make HIS (not his bodies) BED in the darkness. The metaphors are perfect. He will be in the darkness of the grave. That is where he will make his bed. What does one do ON A BED? A bed is for SLEEPING.

Job was saying his death would be like he was asleep. Jesus used the metaphor about Lazarus. The Bible is full of that terminology. So the answer as to what does Job waiting for the resurrection have to do with sleeping is very simple.

He is explaining the WAITING PERIOD between his death and his resurrection. Remember the first thing said is IF I WAIT. He said nothing about instant Heaven. Why? The Spirit never inspired him to do so. Rather it inspired him to say what he did say. We learn from what is taught not from what is not taught.

Re: If A Man Die
 

The only basis for believing that would be from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Nothing else would point that way. When we look at the straight doctrine and reconcile parables and visions to it instead of the other way around you will see the difference.

No one is currently burning in Hell.

Re: If A Man Die
 

Think of it this way. When we discuss the Godhead with Twins and Trins we take them to the OT in order to show them foundational truths. We know if we were to jump right into the New Testament with them or doctrine would seem false.

But when we begin to compare scripture with scripture things begin to get clear. Its the same way with this. Those who try to understand death and resurrection from the New Testament without the understanding that was given in the Old will not get it.

The OT does not speak of people being tormented in Sheol. It speaks of them dying and not being conscious.

Re: If A Man Die
 

Well yes Mike thats the point of the doctrine.

What is a soul anyway?

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen. 2:7

Moses said man is a living soul. So when Job teaches what happens when a man dies you can know what happens to a soul when it dies. It ceases to exist.

104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

So man started out as dust. Then the breath/spirit of God was breathed into that statue of dust and it became a living soul. It never existed before that.

When God takes away the breath man dies going back to dust as he started.

Re: If A Man Die
 

That was a good objective post. Thanks.

As we both know, we must weigh forth the issue with all scriptures. Before the cross, those of us who believe in present torment in hell believe the saints in Sheol did not suffer. Neither were they in Heaven. Sheol contained both the saints and sinners, while sinners suffered in Gehenna whereas the saints did not. It is as though Sheol contained two parts to it. Gehenna and Abraham's bosom. This accounts for the gulf in Christ's words about Lazarus and the rich man.

Anyway, Job never knew of anything other than a resurrection to one day come. What he said did not contradict anything in the rest of the bible. You just cannot write about what you do not know about.

Jesus said hell has fire. And hell is known to be cast into the lake of fire later. You said hellfire is only for those who LIVE again and are cast into the lake of fire. But that does not agree with the thought that hell fire is not the fire from the lake but from hell. And if hell is cast into the lake of fire, then it is from one state of fire to another, with the lake of fire being permanent as opposed to the temporal fire of hell. All this demands that Job's words refer to his body. His body is as much a part of him as is his soul and spirit. We are spirit, soul and body.

Again, Paul's words of being absent from the body to be present with the Lord find no place in soul-sleep theology. The soul remains with the body in the grave and rises with the body to be with the Lord. There is no absence from the body in such a scenario. All of this demands Job's words to refer to the body.

Re: If A Man Die
 

This is what brought my comment "unreal". Look at what you said. He knew nothing about the afterlife? There is no way you could say that imo if you actually read the 3 part posts I wrote.

Job taught with authority about the afterlife and the resurrection and what he said agreed with the rest of the teaching in the OT concerning it.

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The soul is more than breath. It is mind, emotions and will. It did not exist before God breathed Life into it, amen. The soul is what thinks, etc. And if the soul ceases to exist at death then God must recreate the soul upon resurrection. So it now becomes an issue much like what the Jehovahs' Witnesses teach in re-creation, only it is re-creating the soul in this case whereas JW's see the body re-created..

Re: If A Man Die
 

That view does not agree with Paul's words and Christ's words about hell fire, though. How is the soul absent from the body if the soul is ever present with the body in the grave and later rises with the body? As far as Job was concerned, he would be in the grave. But what about greater light revealed in the NT, where we read of things wise men and noble men have desired to know and knew them not?

Re: If A Man Die
 

Can you present any scripture backing this belief from the Old Testament?

Re: If A Man Die
 

It is from all the words of hell in both the old and the new testaments. The saints of the old did not have the insight the Lord and apostles had later in the new. It is not true that everything we need to know is found in the old. The view of soul sleep contradicts the new testament words about hell, as I have been saying.

Re: If A Man Die
 

So if there was greater light given in the subject of the afterlife why not the Godhead? We dont allow Trins to go there when it comes to the Godhead so why should WE do it concerning this?

The Old Testament gives us good sound teaching on death and resurrection. When one looks at the plain sound doctrine of the New Testament it AGREES with what Job and the other OT teachers taught.

Hopefully I will get caught up enough to present THE FOUNDATION scriptures from the prophets concerning death and life and resurrection. Then the difference will become apparent.

Re: If A Man Die
 

So in other words no you cannot prove any of this from the Old Testament scripture. I know you to have great famililarity with the Bible. If there were scriptures to confirm these things you would have posted them.

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Where is the rule that says the Old Testament provides all we need to know about anything? The Godhead issue is indeed further explained in the New, but not by way of trinity. God was manifest in flesh and none of that was explained in the Old.

Of course it agrees with what Job said. But Paul's words about absence from the body does not agree with your proposal of what Job said. The only way Paul and Job could agree is for the view of the body alone sleeping to be the issue.

I still cannot see how Christ's words about Lazarus and the rich man are no more than a myth if you are correct. As Norris said, Christ never spoke stories that did not include actualities as the basis and setting for the characters who may or may not have existed. You claimed it was a metaphor. Please show me a single other instance where a metaphor was used in a parable, and not an actuality.

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I already said the entire and overall scope of scripture that deals with hell must be seen and viewed together. Otherwise, soul sleep makes Jesus' and the apostles'words contradict the old, and the only way to deal with it is to say they used myths.

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Did God re-create Samuel's soul in order to talk to the witch of Endor?

Re: If A Man Die
 

When we survey all Jesus' and the Apostles' words, and know they did not use non-actualities, we realize the issue of hell was incomplete in the Old.

What we are against with trinitarians is their thoughts outside both testaments not just outside the old. This view I am proposing is from the New.

Re: If A Man Die
 

Lets look at what YHWH revealed to the Old Testament writers about death and life. Obviously God can give more light in the New Testament but it cannot contradict what he has given already as truth in the Old.

6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (Sheol) who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 6:4-5


Note here the writer asks YHWH to deliver his SOUL. Why? Because he thought he was near to death. Why would he be concerned about his soul dying if it was immortal?

Then he asks in Sheol/Hades who will give you thanks? The Psalms were looked at by Jesus as inspired of YHWH. They were not just nice songs but rather were teachings given to believers.

So Sheol/Hades was a place where no one was giving thanks to YHWH. Had the righteous been alive there they would have both remembered YHWH and been giving him thanks.

115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

Here we have it confirmed that the dead do not praise the Lord. Why? Because in Sheol/Hades all there is IS SILENCE. It is a place where the dead sleep metaphorically speaking. Nothing happens there.

9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, (Sheol) whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

Here again the Spirit is revealing truth. If this had never been taught in the Old Testament scripture then we could be taught something else in the New. Yet THIS is what YHWH wanted men to believe. This is what his inspired vessels taught.

If there is no device, no wisdom, no work, or no knowledge in Sheol/Hades then obviously there are not millions of people there some praising YHWH and others burning in fire.

The great prophet Isaiah records for us the words of Hezekiah the great King who turned Israel back to YHWH.

38:18 For the grave (Sheol/Hades) cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. Isaiah 38:18-19

So Hezekiah believed the same thing the other inspired OT writers believed and taught. Isaiah was his prophet and teacher so he was no doubt instrumental in the things Hezekiah believed. What was it again?

When one dies they do not celebrate YHWH. They cannot hope for his truth. It is the living that praise him and pass along THE TRUTH from Fathers to children. Hezekiah and Isaiah passed this doctrine to theirs no doubt.

How would they have reacted if one came along and told them NOT SO brothers. What you are teaching is not true. YHWH has told ME that you will find Sheol/Hades a very nice place full of activity and joy!

They would have believed he was attempting to overthrow the truth they were delivered by the Holy Spirit.

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

They would have quickly pointed them to the scriptures that would remind them that the dead are really dead. Since there is no knowledge in Sheol/Hades where they were going they would not know any thing.

146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

Again we are taught the same truth. We praise YHWH while we have any BEING. The living have being. They exist. When men die they exist no more. Their thoughts perish which means die. How could they even know who they were in Sheol/Hades if their thoughts perished?

So in the light of the inspired revelations given to the Old Testament people what was their hope? Did they think they would never awaken from the sleep of death?

17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psalms 17:15

They believed firmly in two things. First their death would be like sleeping. The writer says WHEN I AWAKE.

Note carefully there he does not say WHEN MY BODY AWAKES. No. It was WHEN I AWAKE.

If he says he would awake he knew he would be sleeping. But if he knew he would one day wake up he knew he was going to be resurrected. The day would come he would live again!

So now we have a foundation of truth from scripture that we can compare with other teachings and judge for ourselves what is being added to it whether it agrees with the revelations YHWH gave to the Prophets or not.

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Paul said he was willing to be absent from his body and be present with the Lord Jesus. Lets examine the all important context of this statement he wrote.

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY. To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

Re: If A Man Die
 

And furthermore concerning Pauls statement that he was willing to be absent from his body and present with the Lord:

Some more context.

Did Paul not teach others that it was at the second coming they would be with the Lord?

Let us see.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17

Paul made it clear to the Thessalonians in verse 17 when both the dead and the living will BE WITH THE LORD EVER. If he tells them THEN at that time they will be with the Lord obviously he did not teach the Corinthians that THEY would be with the Lord as soon as they died.

Jesus taught EXACTLY the same thing. After all Paul was merely a disciple, a servant minister of Jesus so he simply taught what Jesus taught.

Confirmation:

John 14:1-3

4:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Here Jesus tells us WHEN WE WILL BE WITH HIM. Does he not say that WHEN HE COMES AGAIN then at that time he will RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF?
Woops! Why are so many willing to overlook what Jesus the Lord and Savior and his Apostle both said about this matter? Being charitable because I used to do the same thing.

Problem is they "lock into" certain Biblical statements at the expense of other Biblical statements.

We must bring ALL the scriptures of a topic to the table and then "rightly divide".

Re: If A Man Die
 

Let us look at yet MORE context concerning Pauls writing that he was willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8-11

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Note the word WHEREFORE in verse nine. That means the thought from verse eight is being carried over into verse nine.

As to the statement we are willing to be absent from THIS PRESENT BODY and to be present with Jesus Christ the very next Holy Spirit inspired thought Paul brought was the day of judgment!

He tied the two thoughts together!

Being present with Jesus and getting a new body and LABORING TO BE ACCEPTED BY HIM AT JUDGMENT! Obviously if (not so dead) saints had went to be with Lord at their death in conscious bliss and happiness they would have ALREADY BEEN ACCEPTED BY HIM would they not?

And yet Paul ties the two things together. We must labor now to be ACCEPTED by Jesus Christ THEN! WHEN?
At the judgment day.

Re: If A Man Die
 

I have not been able to find anywhere in scripture where we immortal beings. Adam was created with immortality and lost it due to sin. I only see where immortality is something we are working toward receiving again at the resurrection.

Romans 2:7
He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.