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Iron_Bladder 05-11-2007 10:55 AM
Christs Two natures are what?
 
The Two Natures of Jesus Christ.

If a Oneness Pentecostal should ever tell you that he or she believes that the Son of God possesses two natures of deity and humanity, then a good question to ask them would be; what are these two natures called?


A) Are they called the Father and the Son?

B) Are they called the Son and the Son?

C) Are they called the Father and the Father?


Now if they should reply (A) then ask them how can one the nature of the Son be really called the Father, as that would make the Son’s deity; God the Father, a position which is extremely common in Oneness but which the better educated Oneness pastors are always loathed to admit to a Trinitarian? Also if the humanity of Christ is called the Son, then that would mean that the Son isn’t Yahweh God at all, but is just God’s flesh which the deity or Father part of Jesus is said to indwell in Oneness theology, which commonly refers to this as; ‘the Almighty God in Christ.’

If they should reply (B) then we could point out that if this were true, then as deity; that would make the Son (in his deity) an eternal Son, which is contrary to every form of Oneness theology. Position (B) is the Trinitarian position which refers to each of Christ’s two natures as the Son, Christ being; ‘the Son of the Father’ (2nd John 3) and not God the Father himself, the genitive ‘of’ implying an obvious and clear distinction between God the Father and the Son. For it’s not possible to be the Son of yourself.

If they should reply (C) then this would be the most idiotic position of all, for that would mean that the Son isn’t the Son in either of his two natures of deity and humanity but is really God the Father in both of them!



(Note this post was written today, the 11th May from scratch. I wrote it at home after going onto this forum in the morning). Due to exams, I might not be able to reply for a week or so.

Chan 05-11-2007 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 110036)
The Two Natures of Jesus Christ.

If a Oneness Pentecostal should ever tell you that he or she believes that the Son of God possesses two natures of deity and humanity, then a good question to ask them would be; what are these two natures called?


A) Are they called the Father and the Son?

B) Are they called the Son and the Son?

C) Are they called the Father and the Father?


Now if they should reply (A) then ask them how can one the nature of the Son be really called the Father, as that would make the Son’s deity; God the Father, a position which is extremely common in Oneness but which the better educated Oneness pastors are always loathed to admit to a Trinitarian? Also if the humanity of Christ is called the Son, then that would mean that the Son isn’t Yahweh God at all, but is just God’s flesh which the deity or Father part of Jesus is said to indwell in Oneness theology, which commonly refers to this as; ‘the Almighty God in Christ.’

If they should reply (B) then we could point out that if this were true, then as deity; that would make the Son (in his deity) an eternal Son, which is contrary to every form of Oneness theology. Position (B) is the Trinitarian position which refers to each of Christ’s two natures as the Son, Christ being; ‘the Son of the Father’ (2nd John 3) and not God the Father himself, the genitive ‘of’ implying an obvious and clear distinction between God the Father and the Son. For it’s not possible to be the Son of yourself.

If they should reply (C) then this would be the most idiotic position of all, for that would mean that the Son isn’t the Son in either of his two natures of deity and humanity but is really God the Father in both of them!



(Note this post was written today, the 11th May from scratch. I wrote it at home after going onto this forum in the morning). Due to exams, I might not be able to reply for a week or so.
None of the above: the two natures are divine and human.

Iron_Bladder 05-11-2007 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 110043)
None of the above: the two natures are divine and human.


OK, I agree, but what do you CALL these two natures? Is the deity called 'Father' and the 'Son' the humanity? So all that I'm asking is for you to label them for me; how does Scripture refer to Jesus' divinty and also to his humanity? Does the Bible have absolutely no name to each? Or if it has names, what are they?

Praxeas 05-11-2007 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 110054)
OK, I agree, but what do you CALL these two natures? Is the deity called 'Father' and the 'Son' the humanity? So all that I'm asking is for you to label them for me; how does Scripture refer to Jesus' divinty and also to his humanity? Does the Bible have absolutely no name to each? Or if it has names, what are they?
He just told you. He calls them Divine and Human. Deity and Humanity. That is what they are called. Please stop reposting the same questions. Most of the thread started here are all yours, one persons and they repeat questions we already answered in another post

Deity and Humanity. That is the answer

Praxeas 05-11-2007 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 110054)
OK, I agree, but what do you CALL these two natures? Is the deity called 'Father' and the 'Son' the humanity? So all that I'm asking is for you to label them for me; how does Scripture refer to Jesus' divinty and also to his humanity? Does the Bible have absolutely no name to each? Or if it has names, what are they?
Why would you name a nature?

Chan 05-11-2007 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 110054)
OK, I agree, but what do you CALL these two natures? Is the deity called 'Father' and the 'Son' the humanity? So all that I'm asking is for you to label them for me; how does Scripture refer to Jesus' divinty and also to his humanity? Does the Bible have absolutely no name to each? Or if it has names, what are they?
Since I believe in hypostatic union into one being, I call them "Jesus."

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 110043)
None of the above: the two natures are divine and human.


OK and what do you call each nature? Do you call the deity the Father and the Son the flesh? Or do you call both natures the Father?

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 110420)
Why would you name a nature?


I'm referring to the deity of Christ and then secondly to his humanity, how do you refer to each? Is Christ's deity the Father and his humanity the Father also? Or is his deity the Father and his humanity called the Son?

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 110419)
He just told you. He calls them Divine and Human. Deity and Humanity. That is what they are called. Please stop reposting the same questions. Most of the thread started here are all yours, one persons and they repeat questions we already answered in another post

Deity and Humanity. That is the answer

OK and what do you call each? Is one the Father and the other the Son or are they both the Father or are they both the Son?

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 110472)
Since I believe in hypostatic union into one being, I call them "Jesus."



So what hs the Father and the Son got to do with Jesus? Is Jesus not either of these, or is he only one or both? When Marks Gospel commences; 'The beginning of Jesus Christ the SON of God' what does Son mean and to which of his two natures does this term apply?

Chan 05-16-2007 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115009)
OK and what do you call each nature? Do you call the deity the Father and the Son the flesh? Or do you call both natures the Father?
I call them both together "Jesus."

Chan 05-16-2007 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115017)
So what hs the Father and the Son got to do with Jesus? Is Jesus not either of these, or is he only one or both? When Marks Gospel commences; 'The beginning of Jesus Christ the SON of God' what does Son mean and to which of his two natures does this term apply?
I didn't say anything about the Father and the Holy Spirit. I said I believe in hypostatic union, which is the union of Jesus' divinity and His humanity into one "person." The term "Son" applies solely to Jesus' humanity because the Son was begotten.

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 115055)
I call them both together "Jesus."


So are you saying that Jesus is NEITHER the Father or the SON, is that what you believe? If you reply no, OK then if jesus is both the Father and the Son, which if his natures is the Father and which of his natures is the Son?

Iron_Bladder 05-16-2007 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 115058)
I didn't say anything about the Father and the Holy Spirit. I said I believe in hypostatic union, which is the union of Jesus' divinity and His humanity into one "person." The term "Son" applies solely to Jesus' humanity because the Son was begotten.

OK so to clarify, the Son means humanity in yoru theology? So to you Father is the deity of Jesus and Son is the humanity of Jesus, is this a correct assessment of what you believe?

Truthseeker 05-16-2007 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115121)
OK so to clarify, the Son means humanity in yoru theology? So to you Father is the deity of Jesus and Son is the humanity of Jesus, is this a correct assessment of what you believe?
I think that's what many oneness folks would say.

Chan 05-16-2007 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115121)
OK so to clarify, the Son means humanity in yoru theology? So to you Father is the deity of Jesus and Son is the humanity of Jesus, is this a correct assessment of what you believe?
No. I adhere to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D., as that Creed is used in Orthodox churches:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the age to come. Amen."

Chan 05-16-2007 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115115)
So are you saying that Jesus is NEITHER the Father or the SON, is that what you believe? If you reply no, OK then if jesus is both the Father and the Son, which if his natures is the Father and which of his natures is the Son?
I'm saying that Jesus is more than just the Son. I do not believe that Jesus' divinity is "the Father." I believe that Jesus' divinity is the logos (divine expression, memra, God's revealed essence).

Praxeas 05-16-2007 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 115011)
I'm referring to the deity of Christ and then secondly to his humanity, how do you refer to each? Is Christ's deity the Father and his humanity the Father also? Or is his deity the Father and his humanity called the Son?
We answered you. Robert, consider this a warning. Stop spamming this forum with your anti Oneness posts. If you want to ask a sincere question and discuss it, fine. But what you are doing is posting anti Oneness polemics and then ignoring our responses to obfuscate things and attack strawman arguments

The two natures are Deity and Humanity. They are natures, not persons. I refer to each as Deity and Humanity. That was my answer. That was Chans answer and you ignoring our answers is not going to solicit a new one from us

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 115225)
I think that's what many oneness folks would say.


Yes Truthseeker almost all Oneness folk explain the Father as Jesus' deity and the Son as Jesus' humanity, but as you can see these people hate to be tied down and so will purposly fight to be vague. For if their theology is ill defined and nebulous, then refuting something which isn't clearly defined is so much more difficult.

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 115272)
No. I adhere to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D., as that Creed is used in Orthodox churches:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,

Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the age to come. Amen."



This post is about Oneness, not Trinitarian creeds which I don't fully adhere to anyway as I reject the doctrine of eternal generation. Do you or do you not claim that the Father = deity of jesus and Son = humanity of Jesus.

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 115520)
We answered you. Robert, consider this a warning. Stop spamming this forum with your anti Oneness posts. If you want to ask a sincere question and discuss it, fine. But what you are doing is posting anti Oneness polemics and then ignoring our responses to obfuscate things and attack strawman arguments

The two natures are Deity and Humanity. They are natures, not persons. I refer to each as Deity and Humanity. That was my answer. That was Chans answer and you ignoring our answers is not going to solicit a new one from us



Chan and youself have ignored my question, which was who is the father and who is the Son, almost all Oneness folk I know deny the deity of the Son (denyiong his divine attributes) by claiming that the Father is Jesus' deity and that the Son is Jesus' humanity.

mfblume 05-17-2007 01:58 AM
Deity and humanity are natures that belong to Jesus. Natures are not someone you can name. A dog has a canine nature, but that nature is not named as such. Rover HAS a nature but NOT IS a nature. Nature is ESSENTIAL QUALITY. And nobody IS an essential quality so as to demand we name the nature by someone's name.

Since there are many dogs in the world, and each one has a canine nature, you cannot say that a canine nature is a specific dog. That is the same mistake as saying deity is Jesus, rather than correctly saying Jesus HAS deity. Although there is only ONE who has a divine nature, the idea still plays through in saying Jesus is not deity but HAS deity. Deity is what makes Him God. But deity is not God, nor is it Father or Son.

Praxeas 05-17-2007 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116724)
Chan and youself have ignored my question, which was who is the father and who is the Son, almost all Oneness folk I know deny the deity of the Son (denyiong his divine attributes) by claiming that the Father is Jesus' deity and that the Son is Jesus' humanity.
oh my gosh...that was NOT your question. Your question is "Christs two natures are what?" and we told you what.

Then you asked us to name then and we told you the two natures are called Deity and Humanity.

You have been answered. Now stop playing that game you always play where you change questions and say we did not answer or just ignore our answers

mfblume 05-17-2007 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116724)
Chan and youself have ignored my question, which was who is the father and who is the Son, almost all Oneness folk I know deny the deity of the Son (denyiong his divine attributes) by claiming that the Father is Jesus' deity and that the Son is Jesus' humanity.
The Father is not Jesus' deity and the Son is not Jesus' humanity. That is a completely incorrect manner of thought altogether. Your question makes no sense, since it is implying a thought that is incorrect and cannot be considered due to its inherent error. You are trying to say NATURES are persons. They are not. A Nature is that which a being possesses which makes it whatever being it is. A dog has the nature of a dog, and God has the nature of God. There is only One who has the nature of God, and that is God. But you cannot say the nature is God. It is only descriptive of what God is.

The Son is the One who HAS a human nature and divine nature, both. The SON is both divine and human. The Son is the person of Jesus manifest in flesh with both divine and human nagtures. The Father is Jesus as well, but not in consideration of His manifestation in flesh. The Father is not Jesus' divinity, but rather the Father HAS divinity alone as a nature. The entire thought that a NATURE is someone is incorrect. Natures are not a WHO but are what beings HAVE.

God, who is Jesus, existed before He was manifested as Son. He existed as Father and as everything else that is divine. The same person of Jesus manifested in flesh and that manifestation is both divine and human. The Son is GOD according to Hebrews 1:8.

An apple's nature includes the fact that it is red. Is RED an apple? Of course not. Neither is the Father Jesus' "deity".

To answer the original question, Christ's two natures are two distinct qualities He possesses which makes Him human only since His incarnation, and deity for eternity past and future.

To answer WHO is the Father and WHO is the Son, we say JESUS. We do not say any thought of "natures". A nature is not a "who". Jesus is a "Who."

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 116726)
Deity is what makes Him God. But deity is not God, nor is it Father or Son.



What do you mean by this? Please clarify, thanks MF

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 116730)
oh my gosh...that was NOT your question. Your question is "Christs two natures are what?" and we told you what.

Then you asked us to name then and we told you the two natures are called Deity and Humanity.

You have been answered. Now stop playing that game you always play where you change questions and say we did not answer or just ignore our answers



But what are they called? is the Deity the Father and the Humanity the Son, or is Jesus Christ not the Father and the Son at all? If jesus Christ is the father and he is also the Son, in what sense is christ father and Son, hey I'd really like to know your opinion. Almost all Oneness folk whom I;'ve ever met have said that the Father is Jesus' deity and the Son is Jesus' humanity, so therefore in Oneness the Son isn't God, but is a man in whom God then indwells, this is known a the almighty God IN Christ.

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 04:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 116731)
The Son is the One who HAS a human nature and divine nature, both. The SON is both divine and human.



OK so if the Son is divine and as God is eternal, as that's one of his divine attributes, creatorship is another (Isaiah 44:24), then that would make the Son acording to you both an eternal Son (a Son who has existed as the Son eternally) and also the creator. You can't have it both ways, if you deny that the Son is eternal and creator, then like the JWs and Unitarians your actually claiming that the Son isn't YHWH GOD, but is a part of the creation by YHWH.

thanks MF

Iron_Bladder 05-17-2007 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 116731)
God, who is Jesus, existed before He was manifested as Son. He existed as Father and as everything else that is divine.


So really to you only the Father possesses divine attributes, the Son isn't YHWH God himself, but is a mer projection or manifestation of YHWH God who is the Father. Look Mr Blume, what your really saying is that the Son according to Oneness folk like you isn't eternal, creator, omnipresent, omnipotent or immutible as the Son, as the Son doesn't possess any of these divine attributes.

OGIA 05-17-2007 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 116731)
The Father is not Jesus' deity and the Son is not Jesus' humanity. That is a completely incorrect manner of thought altogether. Your question makes no sense, since it is implying a thought that is incorrect and cannot be considered due to its inherent error. You are trying to say NATURES are persons. They are not. A Nature is that which a being possesses which makes it whatever being it is. A dog has the nature of a dog, and God has the nature of God. There is only One who has the nature of God, and that is God. But you cannot say the nature is God. It is only descriptive of what God is.

The Son is the One who HAS a human nature and divine nature, both. The SON is both divine and human. The Son is the person of Jesus manifest in flesh with both divine and human nagtures. The Father is Jesus as well, but not in consideration of His manifestation in flesh. The Father is not Jesus' divinity, but rather the Father HAS divinity alone as a nature. The entire thought that a NATURE is someone is incorrect. Natures are not a WHO but are what beings HAVE.

God, who is Jesus, existed before He was manifested as Son. He existed as Father and as everything else that is divine. The same person of Jesus manifested in flesh and that manifestation is both divine and human. The Son is GOD according to Hebrews 1:8.

An apple's nature includes the fact that it is red. Is RED an apple? Of course not. Neither is the Father Jesus' "deity".

To answer the original question, Christ's two natures are two distinct qualities He possesses which makes Him human only since His incarnation, and deity for eternity past and future.

To answer WHO is the Father and WHO is the Son, we say JESUS. We do not say any thought of "natures". A nature is not a "who". Jesus is a "Who."
Excellent post! And, as you are seeing, IB is simply an objector. His request for "clarification" is for purposes of argument. If he can't understand what you posted above (and in your previous post), God help him! But, we know, that's the only One who can anyway, right? :thumbsup

Chan 05-17-2007 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116723)
This post is about Oneness, not Trinitarian creeds which I don't fully adhere to anyway as I reject the doctrine of eternal generation. Do you or do you not claim that the Father = deity of jesus and Son = humanity of Jesus.
No, I don not claim that Father = deity of Jesus and Son = humanity of Jesus. Again, I adhere to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed I quoted earlier. I don't care whether you adhere to trinitarian creeds or not: you seem to be accusing me of being oneness when I'm not. As for what oneness folks believe, you'll find that there are differing beliefs among oneness folks just as there are often differing beliefs among trinitarians.

Praxeas 05-17-2007 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116737)
But what are they called? is the Deity the Father and the Humanity the Son, or is Jesus Christ not the Father and the Son at all? If jesus Christ is the father and he is also the Son, in what sense is christ father and Son, hey I'd really like to know your opinion. Almost all Oneness folk whom I;'ve ever met have said that the Father is Jesus' deity and the Son is Jesus' humanity, so therefore in Oneness the Son isn't God, but is a man in whom God then indwells, this is known a the almighty God IN Christ.
You were already answered.
His two natures are called Deity and Humanity. There are no names given to natures.

The Divine nature OF The Father is in Christ's humanity ontologically united, but not mixed or fused. The Divine nature of the Son IS the Divine nature of the Father Rom 8:9

mfblume 05-17-2007 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116738)
OK so if the Son is divine and as God is eternal, as that's one of his divine attributes, creatorship is another (Isaiah 44:24), then that would make the Son acording to you both an eternal Son (a Son who has existed as the Son eternally) and also the creator.
Extrapolate a bit further back in your reasoning beyond SON. The SON is the person of Jesus manifested in flesh. Jesus is the eternal one. Not the Son. The Son had a beginning. In fact the only reason the bible gives for the title SON is an anthropomorphic reason. The Father impregnated Mary and she birthed a child, making the Son of this mother named Mary and the Father. How can the Son be eternal unless Mary is also eternal? You cannot have an eternal Son without both an eternal Father and Mother. And since this is not the case, the Son is not eternal.

Since the PERSON who is the Son is the same Person who is the Father, and the PERSON is eternal, we see the deity in the Son. The Son does not have to be eternal in order for the person who is the Son to be eternal.

Quote:
You can't have it both ways, if you deny that the Son is eternal and creator, then like the JWs and Unitarians your actually claiming that the Son isn't YHWH GOD, but is a part of the creation by YHWH.
Incorrect. If there is a SINGLE PERSON who is eternal, and manifested as Father, and then also as Son only through incarnation and onward, then the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

You're welcome! :)

mfblume 05-17-2007 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder (Post 116739)
So really to you only the Father possesses divine attributes, the Son isn't YHWH God himself, but is a mer projection or manifestation of YHWH God who is the Father.
Incorrect. The PERSON of God is eternal and has always been deity. But this person took upon Himself the nature of humanity as well through incarnation alone. The person existed before the incarnation existed. And the incarnation involved human nature. There is no Son without human nature. And since human nature is not eternal, the Son is not eternal either. God took upon Himself the nature of humanity -- the nature of Abraham, which is human. Sonship cannot exist with fatherhood and motherhood. We cnanot change definitions of words as trinitarianism does with the term SON. There is no such thing as a Son without both a mother and father. Therefore, since the mother is not eternal, the Son never can be and never was eternal.

Since the Person of God was incarnate, then the Son is not a mere projection of God, but is God in very person. But there is only One Person.

Quote:
Look Mr Blume, what your really saying is that the Son according to Oneness folk like you isn't eternal, creator, omnipresent, omnipotent or immutible as the Son, as the Son doesn't possess any of these divine attributes.
Incorrect. The Son's PERSON, which is the same Person as the Father and Holy Ghost, is eternal. This Person of God existed at one time without ever having incarnated Himself. Therefore, the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

It's really quite simple.

mfblume 05-17-2007 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 116746)
Excellent post! And, as you are seeing, IB is simply an objector. His request for "clarification" is for purposes of argument. If he can't understand what you posted above (and in your previous post), God help him! But, we know, that's the only One who can anyway, right? :thumbsup
Thanks!

The entire error our friend is manifesting is the thought that natures are persons, and they are not. As I said, and he never answered this, an apple has the nature of being red. But red is not an apple.

Jesus Christ is the eternal God. He manifested in flesh, and for the first time, the Person of God had a human nature. Many other beings have the same human nature, namely every human who ever lived and will live. So if human nature is God's person, then we are all gods. lol. But we know better than that. Our friend never thought of that, though.

Divine nature is not only different than human nature, for obvious reasons, but is also different since there is only One Being who possesses it. God. Many beings possess human nature. Only one Being possesses divine nature.

So, the idea of natures being persons is most incorrect.

Praxeas 05-17-2007 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 117994)



Incorrect. If there is a SINGLE PERSON who is eternal, and manifested as Father, and then also as Son only through incarnation and onward, then the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

You're welcome! :)
Whether it's a matter of morality and just not trying to understand what you posted or his cognizant ability in communication and understanding, I can promise you I have told him that over and over and over for the last 8 years or so....It's been many years, probably more than 7

mfblume 05-18-2007 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 118008)
Whether it's a matter of morality and just not trying to understand what you posted or his cognizant ability in communication and understanding, I can promise you I have told him that over and over and over for the last 8 years or so....It's been many years, probably more than 7
Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?

Praxeas 05-18-2007 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 118027)
Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?
Well it's not that he will deny the truth...it's that you could say verbatim "Father and Son are the same Yahweh God" and he will turn around and say "No! You don't believe that. You believe the Son is a mere man and someone one other than God"

In other words, you are not wasting your breath here because he will never accept the truth, you are wasting your breath because when you say "the sky is blue" he will deny you believe the sky is blue.

Iron_Bladder 05-18-2007 04:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 117317)
You were already answered.
His two natures are called Deity and Humanity. There are no names given to natures.

The Divine nature OF The Father is in Christ's humanity ontologically united, but not mixed or fused. The Divine nature of the Son IS the Divine nature of the Father Rom 8:9



So is Christ the Father and the Son ..... yes or no? If yes, what do the words; 'Father' and 'Son' mean to you in your theology Praxeas?

Iron_Bladder 05-18-2007 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 118027)
Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?

John 8:24, that's why

Iron_Bladder 05-18-2007 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 118029)
Well it's not that he will deny the truth...it's that you could say verbatim "Father and Son are the same Yahweh God" and he will turn around and say "No! You don't believe that. You believe the Son is a mere man and someone one other than God"

In other words, you are not wasting your breath here because he will never accept the truth, you are wasting your breath because when you say "the sky is blue" he will deny you believe the sky is blue.


But Praxeas almost every cult and hersy will admit that Jesus is God! The issue isn't one of words but of meanings, what does a Mormon, Trinitarian, JW and Oneness person mean when they say; 'Jesus is God.' sadly the answer is completely different things with regard to the application of divine attributes to the nature of the Father and the Son.

Most cults will say that the Son (Jesus) is God, but will then deny that the Son is eternal, immutible, creator, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient etc. The Bible never states that those who say; 'Jesus is God' are saved or even can be saved. Salvation is dependent upon the application of every divine attribute to the Son which is also applied to the Father, so that if a person were to say that God is eternal or the Father is eternal, but the Son is not eternal, then that person has broken John 8:24.

Likewise the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent (as the Father and also as the Son), so if a cult say the JWs were to deny this truth then once again; John 8:24. You see a person cannot be a true Christian simply by saying 'jesus is God' becasue every cult also affirms this and then qualifies either the word 'jesus' or the word 'God' to mean that he;s only called God but he doesn't possess any divine attributes (as the Son). So once again John 8:24, the Son is YHWH and those who deny this such as JWs, Mormons, Unitarians etc cannot be saved.


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