Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Greetings to all posters.

I was browsing the "eternal/temporary torture" thread and read where someone suggested infants are born innocent? I do understand the sensitivity of an infant's death and their eternal status. However, are infants really born "innocent?

We've read that, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12), and we also know, "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

If infants were born innocent and/or sinless, they would be "per-se" a duplication of Jesus. Yes, Jesus was sinless, but in order for Jesus to die, he had to become sin. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God ( 2nd Corinthians 5:21).

Thus, Jesus' murderer wasn't any individual but rather sin killed Him. If a child was born sinless, he/she would be exempt from Romans 5:12. Therefore, infants aren't sinless.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

I don't agree that infants sin. They can't willfully disobey God.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

I respect your opinion. However, Romans 5:12 clearly states "death by sin;" "and so death passed upon all men." Death is existant due to sin. According to the scripture, death is passed upon all men (infants included because of the flesh) because of sin. Whether infant or adult, death is due to the sinful nature.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

He doesn't say "All are born with sin"...Paul sad "All HAVE sinned"

So what is sin? Sin is the breaking of God's laws. What Law of God does an infant break? None...yet. But as they grow older they will sin

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

You also err in saying "in order for Jesus to die he had to become sin"..the bible does not say that.

He became a sin offering for us. He was our sacrificial lamb on whom all the sins of the world were put on. He did no sin. He was not a sinner. You quoted the right verse but it does not say "in order to die".

A child IS born sinless until they commit SIN. But they are not except because death came by one man on to ALL men.

That is where the sin NATURE comes in. Children, not having sinned yet, WILL sin because they have Adam's fallen sin nature. The only one able to resist the fallen sin nature and succumbed to sinning was Jesus

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

You are not only taking the verse out of context but you are ignoring part of that verse

Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Notice that word 'and'? That is a conjunction that connects two related thoughts,

Sin entered into the world by one man AND death by sin. Because of the sin of Adam ALL men will die

And now here is the context

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

See? Death was the result of one man's sin..Adam

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Infants definitely have fallen human nature (sinful nature). However, said nature hasn't manifest active sin against the creator. Thus they are "innocent of sin" against God. If allowed to live, their sin nature will eventually manifest active sin against God.

So with regards to nature infants are sinful beings.
With regards to action infants are sinless beings.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

First can i ask you what sin a child has commited.
Death came into the world cause adam sinned.

Now lets continue on with the context of verses and not try to abuse one with using the rest of the word of God.

2samuel 12
22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Obvious that David thought the Child would go some were that he himself could follow. David being a rightous man didnt plan on going to hell. so one can assume with Confidence the Child was going back to God.



Mark 10:13-16 ESV
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

amazing That God thought the kids belong to heaven


Last Part How can one Be judged by the word if they never heard it?
romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Jesus also stated
John 15:22

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

If some one wants to condem babies to hell, then i would say you would be a child of your father the Devil. Cause God said Children belong to heaven.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

I agree. Children are born innocent and without sins, as Adam & Eve were innocent in the beginning. Children have free will, and thus the capacity (even the predilection) to sin, as did Adam and Eve.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Praxeas:

Does Paul's comment of "all have sinned" refer to humanity as a whole (every breathing human being on Earth), or is "all" referring to only individuals that have surpassed infancy? Romans 3:23 reads, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I'm sure you'll agree the"all" refers to all of mankind.


We read in Job 15:14, "What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?" There isn't one person that's pure/righteous, regardless of their age. Through Adam's sin all humanity lost their righteousness, and righteousness can only be obtained through Christ, according to Paul.

You suggested above that infants can't sin until they age. Paul states in Philippians that righteousness comes through faith in Christ. If infants are too young to be sinners, then surely they're too young to believe and become righteous through Christ and by Christ. What then, are infants righteous or unrighteous? Throughout scripture we read Jesus refers to the righteous and unrighteous, there is no in-between.

Furthermore, David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." In David's psalm he reflects on his life and openly admits being a sinner at birth. David isn't referencing his mother creating him while committing adultery.

In Psalms 86:16 David prays to God, "Turn to me and have mercy on me; grant your strength to your servant and save the son of your maidservant"

Here David plainly indicated his mother was God's maidservant, a women who devoted and committed her life to God. In Psalms 51:5, David plainly stated he was in sin at birth.

I've posted enough scripture to defend my stance. I now ask that you post scriptures identifying infants as being sinless until a certain age is reached.

This scriptures don't imply children are sinless. It refers to humility a believer must possess as of a child.


Jesus bore our sins. He took personal possession of our sins as his own sins so we could be declared righteous. He became sin.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

We are in agreement, man became mortal due to disobedience.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Yes, David would follow him to the grave.



No, it isn't amazing. I can't derive your interpretation from the scriptures you posted. Jesus' message within those scriptures didn't indicate that children belong to heaven. He was implying you must become as a child.

Matt 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

then show me your biblical stand point, can you show me were babies are condemed to hell?

Tell us how you get out of any scriptures that God condems babies to hell.
and again can you show me what Sin a baby has committed that they would be condemn for. what could the accuser of man accuse this baby of in front of God?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Lets look were david said he was Going. and he didnt state the grave.
pslams 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Now show me your biblical stand point, can you show me were babies are condemed to hell?

Tell us how you get out of any scruptures that God condems babies to hell.
and again can you show me what Sin a baby has committed.

Edit
I edited my post but for some reason it created a second post.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Really? You should read all my responses to Praxeas, you'll get your answers there.

Are infants a part of humanity, yes or no?

All I've read is your own opinion without any scripture defending your stance. How about you show me scriptures referencing that infants aren't sinners?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Here David speaks:

Psalms 61:4
I long to dwell in your tent forever and take refuge in the shelter of your wings. Selah

Did David desire to dwell in a tent or house for eternity? The answer is neither. In these scriptures David expresses his longing of serving and dwelling within God's house, a physical Tabernacle, a literal place of worship (Psalms 23:6) or (Psalms 61:4) within the "tent" where the ark of the covenant was located.


Here again David comments:

Psalms 27:4
One thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.


Psalms 26:8
I love the house where you live, O LORD, the place where your glory dwells.

Within all these scriptures David denotes his desire to live a long life in God's service while dwelling in a physical structure on Earth.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Do you belive babies Go to hell.
Cause only a carnal minded man would believe that.

again you dance around my question. what sin has a baby commited.
There is no sin in the Child just for being born. because the Bible states that God formed the baby.

Now How could a perfect and Holy God create anything with Sin already in it?
Sin is a choice, its something we choose todo, exspecially to gratify and pleasure our own lust and desires over that Of Gods will.

Sin is in essence turning you back to God and saying God i dont need to listen to you. Im gonna go my own way.

Will a baby grow up to do this? Yes have they yet? No

Then how can you declare that babies goto hell when they have no commited aqny act of rebellion in ther sight of God?

Being Born into this world Doesnt make you a sinner. Your lust and hearts desire over God is what makes you a sinner.

Even Paul stated I was alive at one time. But then the Law came, sin sprang up and i died.

How can the Law condem a baby who has not even broke it? serious
you make a straw mans argument off of all have sin. He didnt write that letter to new born babies. He wrote it to adults who are accountable for there own actions.

it sickens me to think that a person actually believes babies go to hell. if anything God rescued them from having to live in a sinful world.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Here's a simple question! If you were God and had to judge would you condemn a baby to hell?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

whats even worse. Is that saying a baby is going to hell because of sin Thats saying God creates sin.

Cause God forms the Child in their mother womb, and in order for it to have sin to be condemned God would have to put sin in that Child. Since it has not broken any of the law or commandments that God has set fourth. The baby hasnt even had a chance to use its free will.

The Sin had to be put into it from the time it was formed, and since God formed it. Jacob is basically stating that God creates sin.

That is why God gives us a dicerning Spirit.

You have 3 men with three different views of the Godhead who usually argue over it. Yet all three of us. aquilla , myself, and prax agree that a baby is inocent on the sheer bases that they have not even comnitted a act of sin.

Yet this man who is trying to make a straw mans arguement, which with what he is saying is in my view a carnal minded person, cant comprehend scriptures, were God is stating to the apostles you need to become like these Children.

why cause there innocent in the Sight of God

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Humanity is born with a wicked heart. Jeremiah 17:9 reads, "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked...."

We are born with a heart of "stone", a wicked/sinful "heart." It's for that reason that God states, Ezekiel 36:26, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."



Psalms 58:3
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

David declares man as being alienated from God as early as the womb. Remember, David also claimed being a sinner himself in infancy.

Acerrak, please describe David's comment of "people are born sinners."


Once again you just post "your opinion." I asked you for valid scripture referencing where infants are sinless.

Here is a repost of what I wrote to Praxeas:

David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." In David's psalm he reflects on his life and openly admits being a sinner at birth. David isn't referencing his mother creating him while committing adultery.

In Psalms 86:16 David prays to God, "Turn to me and have mercy on me; grant your strength to your servant and save the son of your maidservant"

Here David plainly indicated his mother was God's maidservant, a women who devoted and committed her life to God. In Psalms 51:5, David plainly stated he was in sin at birth.


Acerrrak, David clearly contradicts your method of belief. He states he was a sinner while being an infant, but you state infants are sinless. Who is correct, David or yourself?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

How many babies died in the era of Noah's flood? Did God spare those babies then?

I would adhere to my word if I was God. I would judge according to what I have spoken.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

We are not in Noah's time, and we are not under the Old Covenant where men are judged by sins in their life or how hard they are trying to be perfect in the sight of Jesus.
We are not under the curse of the law, because Jesus nailed the handwriting of the law that was against us and contrary to us and nailed it to his cross and abolished it forever. Some people need to look up in the old English dictionary the meaning of abolish.

Men are judged today in the sight of Jesus by faith. That is the bible stating.

How then can you judge a baby or even a child by faith if that infant has not even reached a degree of understanding. Right, you can't and neither does Jesus,

Stop being fools it makes Christianity look bad in the sight of the non-believers.

When Jesus went into the holy place in heaven he atoned for all sin one time and forever and then he sat down. That indicates it is a finished work.

Your sins were atoned for before you were ever born. You inherited that atonement by repentance and faith when you believed the gospel of Christ.

And if your one who thinks baptism removed your sins, then did it remove the ones which were past and present, or did it remove all past, present, and future. If it removed past and presents then you need to be dipped every time you sin.

What if a child dies in a flood or in another country and it's parents don't believe, is that child condemned because of the sins of it's parents? I think not, where sin has been paid for there is no condemnation.

The just shall live by faith.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

I see all opinion and no biblical scripture to defend your stance. Try answering the questions I asked Acerake and Praxeas, I would like to see you do so.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

So than does a baby need to obey Acts 2:38? :crazy


:doggyrun

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Presumably, it's not possible. But that may be why it's so sad when a baby dies, and why it's not good to kill a baby.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

All humanity must obey Acts 2:38. :snapout

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Is a baby righteous or unrighteous? Please answer with scripture.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

How's this for a starter;
Romans 9; 11, For the children not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand, not of works, but of him{ Jesus} that calleth.

In plain english, those whom Jesus justified before the foundation of the world began.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

I don't know.
I asked if a baby has to obey Acts 2:38, by you're answer I'm guessing that you mean yes.
So now I'm asking you, when? As soon as were born?

:doggyrun

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

He could pick a scripture for either answer. Anyone could. Here, let me try.

1. Righteous. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20.

2. Unrighteous. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10.

Which do you prefer?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Why are you avoiding my questions to Acerrak and Praxeas? I will answer any questions you have after you answer mine. Thanks.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

That doesn't answer any questions. Is an infant righteous or unrighteous being?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Huh? I answered it both ways, with scripture. Oh, but if you want me to pick one, I'll go with righteous. Final answer.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Scripturally, how are we made righteous?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Everyone born of mankind is not sin free, this does include infants. We are all in spiritual nature seperated from the life of God in the spirit sense. We are all disobedient from the cradle to the grave. Is that the answer your looking for?


I was under the impression that the debate was, Does Jesus condem infants to hell if they die. If that is the debate, I say no in regard to my last post referring to Romans 9:11.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Scripturally, your guess is as good as mine, but a lot of folks' favorite way is Acts 2:38.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Would you like me to repost my questions?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

The answer is found within scripture. Come to me with a definite answer, please.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Many answers are found in scripture.

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Yes. So what does scripture state on how we become righteous?

Re: Are Infants Really Born Sinless?
 

Well, obviously all of us on here seem to be missing the answer, might not be a bad idea. at this point I'm confused to what the question really is.