lucifer
 

just wondering what yalls thought on ,the devil being in heaven or not.

i will post after i get a few responses

Re: lucifer
 

Re: lucifer
 

he once was but was kicked out, i dont know if he can come and go.'(all the time)

In job when the angels presented themselves to the Lord he came with them.
for the purpose of accusing man.

So i dont know if he still does or not. i cant really asnswer that one at this time.

Re: lucifer
 

what a terrible link

i wouldnt recommend that at all. its filled with unbiblical truths from just reading this.

john 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

that book just called Jesus a liar.


ezekiel 28:14,15
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.


How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

isaiah 14:12,13
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)

Revelation 12:4-9 (King James Version) "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

(6)And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

(7)And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8)And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(9)And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.


Its hard to have a battle in heaven with a imaginary fictional being, just saying.

Re: lucifer
 

Rev 12 is traditionally thought to show what happened when satan fell from heaven, but it is not concretely proved to be talking about that. This could solely refer to the point much later around the time when Christ was born and later when he ascended and war in heaven broke out in synch with the events of the first century when I believe most of Revelation was fulfilled. And 1/3 of the stars falling does not concretely mean 1/3 of the angels became demons. People assume it means that but he context does not actually say that. We do know Jesus saw satan fall like lightning from Heaven. People ASSUME Isa 14 is speaking about that when Lucifer is said to be fallen from heaven. Scholars claim Lucifer was a Babylonian human being.

So many assumptions and theories. I believe he fell from Heaven and I lean towards Lucifer being satan. Demons are not human spirits created by God who died before Adam was created, but angels who lost their first estate. IMHO.

Re: lucifer
 

That's how I understand it also.

Re: lucifer
 

This pdf file is based on a chart Bro. S.G. Norris used for teaching on satan.
I don't know if you will be able t see it or not.
Some times pdf files cannot be accessed in some of my posts.
You may have to download it to read it.

Re: lucifer
 

"Lucifer" doesn't exist. The proper name Lucifer isn't in the oldest of biblical writings. It is a proper name created by combining the Latin words Lucem and Ferre and means light bearer. If Isaiah was written in Hebrew, why do we accept that the obviously much later added LATIN words combined into a proper name is a real name of a fallen angel?

Satan is real, but he is not Lucifer. In fact Is.14 tells us in the very beginning who it is telling us about, and it isn't a fallen angel. It is a Babylonian king.

Re: lucifer
 

Another passage about Lucifer....

Ezekiel 28:12-19
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Many things ascribed to this "king of Tyrus" are beyond that of a human king. He was in Eden, the garden of God (of ancient origin). Being the anointed cherib that covers the presence of God. Being on the holy mountain of God and going forth, walking up and done among the stars, etc.

In Isaiah 14 we read:

Isaiah 14:4-15
4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

In both cases the prophets are addressing not only a human king... but the "spirit" of Satan residing in that human king. These kings were "full of the devil", possessed of Satan. Therefore the prophecy wasn't merely addressing them as human beings, but the spirit of Satan within them.

We see Satan assume possession of Judas. We see him enfluencing Peter. We see him beguile Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. We see him possess fallen saints of God who begin opposing the Gospel.

In each case Satan is at work... as with these human kings. We glean the history of Satan from these prophecies. Many critical scholars believe that these prophecies merely address human kings. I don't see it as being so. The king of Tyrus wasn't "in Eden". However, the evil spirit possessing him was.

I do believe in Satan, devils, demons, and unclean spirits. I also believe in spiritual warfare. However, I believe that a position of skepticism needs to be taken until the spirit manifests itself as being in operation. Don't go casting the devil out of every "bump in the night".

Re: lucifer
 

Aquila, Ezekiel 28 may be about Adam.

Re: lucifer
 

Good post.

Re: lucifer
 

doesnt cherubs have 4 wings, and seraphims have 6

also there was a cherub that gaurded the entrance. So if he was reffering to adam, we all would have 4 wings just like our ancestor

and it would be mentioned some where in the bible that man had wings.

Re: lucifer
 

Cherubim and seraphim are synonymous. In Revelation they each had a different face, and in Ezekiel 1 they each had all four faces that the beasts in Rev had one of each. They are biblical imageries. In Rev the beasts/cherubims say they were redeemed from all nations. Rev 5:9. They represent the church, I believe.

Check out what one commentator said who had the same conclusions I found in my studies:

and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden, cherubims ; the Septuagint version is,"and he placed him, or caused him (Adam) to dwell over against the paradise of pleasure, and he ordered the cherubim''But the words are not to be understood either of placing man, or placing the cherubim, but of Jehovah's placing himself, or taking up his habitation and residence before the garden of Eden, or at the east of it: while man abode in a state of innocence, the place of the divine Presence, or where God more gloriously manifested himself to him, was in the garden; but now he having sinned, and being driven out of it, he fixes his abode in a very awful manner at the entrance of the garden, to keep man out of it; for so the words may be rendered, "and he inhabited the cherubim, or dwelt over, or between the cherubim, before or at the east of the garden of Eden" (q); so the Jerusalem Targum,"and he made the glory of his Shechinah, or glorious Majesty, to dwell of old at the east of the garden of Eden, over or above the two cherubim;''or between them, as the Targum of Jonathan; and very frequently is Jehovah described as sitting and dwelling between the cherubim, 1Sa_4:4 by which are meant not flying animals or fowls, whose form no man ever saw, as Josephus (r); nor angels, which is the more generally received opinion; for these were not real living creatures of any sort, but forms and representations, such as were made afterwards in the tabernacle of Moses, and temple of Solomon; and which Ezekiel and John saw in a visionary way, and from whom we learn what figures they were: and these were hieroglyphics, not of a trinity of persons, as some of late have stupidly imagined; for these were the seat of the divine Majesty, and between which he dwelt: and besides, as these had four faces, they would rather represent a quaternity than a trinity, and would give a similitude of the divine Being, which cannot be done, and be contrary to the second command; to which may be added, that the word is sometimes singular as well as plural: but these were hieroglyphics of the ministers of the word, whose understanding, humility, and tenderness, are signified by the face of a man; their strength, courage, and boldness, by that of a lion; their labour and diligence by that of an ox; and their quick sight and penetration into divine things by that of an eagle, which are the forms and figures of the cherubim; See Gill on Eze_1:10. Among these Jehovah is; with these he grants his presence, and by them signifies his mind and will to men; and these he makes use of to show them the vanity of all self-confidence, and to beat them off of seeking for life and righteousness by their own works, and to direct them alone to Christ, and point him out as the alone way of salvation; and of this use the hieroglyphic might be to fallen Adam, now driven out of Eden:

JOHN GILL on Gen. 3:24

Re: lucifer
 

yea i dont nesacerilly agree with that.

Re: lucifer
 

I cannot see how anyone can disagree. The beasts said they were redeemed from all nations.

Put it this way. Adam named only four kinds of creation. Cattle, beasts,fowl and his own wife. The king of the cattle is the ox. The king of the beasts is lion, king of fowl is eagle and of course man is king. These are the faces of the cherubims in Ezekiel and Revelation.

God made a covenant with NOAH (man), cattle, beasts and fowl in Genesis 9. Coincidence?

Israel had THE SAME FOUR FACES depicted on banners surrounding the tabernacle in Numbers 2. The faces stood for TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

Tie that together with the fact that Rev 5:9 has the beasts say they were redeemed from all nations, and it all comes together showing cherubims were biblical imagery of THE CHURCH.

Breaks popular tradition, I know. But when I saw this in my studies and then saw Gill's words, I almost fell off my chair.

Re: lucifer
 

wow sorry i been real busy and forgot i even made the post lol.i must be getting old ..

not much time this morn but //heres another question to add to it .

so was satan a liar from the beginning or not ?
do angels have free will?
was god not smart enough to know angels were trying to take over if in fact they were ,and if he was why didnt he stop them ?
but then again angels would have to have free will.

all i got time for this morn.

Re: lucifer
 

nah trying to take this and make it look like that. we know the seraphims were around the throne of God. and im not gonna take little peices of the bible from hear and there and try to put something together that isnt there.

Cherubims were on top of the ark dude and they had wings. Infact there wings touched stretching over the mercy sit on the ark of the covenant.

These cherubims are not man so yes i certainly disagree.
infact there is seperation from adam and the cherub that gaurded eden. this wasnt the church.

and many, of the translations from rec 5:9 do not translate us, they translate the word to people.

You have reedemed people of every nation and tounge to God.
While the Kjv does say us. i am not gonna jump and say well the Kjv said it it must be golden

Re: lucifer
 

Adam was a cherub?

Re: lucifer
 

People can get so logically minded they rule out anything supernatural in the Scriptures... until their child gets sick or possessed. :(

We have to face it... I know the human ego wants to be the center of it all. We want it to be all about us. But there are greater creatures in this creation that are higher than man. Fearsome, strange, and downright freaky creatures. Are they some sort of living hieroglyph? I think the idea is cool... clearly these very real beasts represent a greater reality. Every lamb slaughtered in the OT was a literal lamb, but typified Christ. These can be literal angelic creatures and be living hieroglyphs. I see them as living celestial representatives of creation itself. They are seen when all creation is giving praise to the Lamb of God.

Re: lucifer
 

I'm finding the strangest trend among Apostolics. Everyone has a heresy. lol

Most focus on the person of Jesus and diverge into believing various things... but never the Trinity. Modalism, Nestorianism, Unitarianism, Arianism... you'll find these embraced among the Apostolic movement in various forms. But not Trinitarianism. Hmmmm... isn't that odd?

Next, we have a tendency to break from positions such as... the existence of Satan. Believe in God... but not the enemy. Believe in Heaven, but not Hell. Believe in a self established legalistic righteousness... but not grace.

Re: lucifer
 

saduccess was the same way, no spirits no angels etc etc.

Re: lucifer
 

They were very sadducee (sad you see) because they did not believe in the resurrection

Re: lucifer
 

Never said for a second that I, nor has anyone else here, deny the existence of Satan. Merely completely disagree with Lucifer, a name that could not possibly have been in the HEBREW writing Isaiah, being the "origin" story of Satan.

The fact that Ezekiel and Isaiah attribute "heavenly" or non-human atrributes to kings does not make them some sort of veiled lessons about Satan. Why stop with those two? In Ezekiel alone at least 2 other kings are addressed in poetic language that makes them sound as though they are not simply the kings thatthe verse4s themselves tell us they are.

Re: lucifer
 

I cast out devils, seen cancers healed and use word of knowledge, so the supernatural is not something we explain away at all. lol. Angels are not cherubims. They have the faces of earthly creatures and I believe were very literal beings, but even existing in reality are still symbolic. So I think they are literal creatures. Yes. But they are representative. Living hieroglyphs.

Cherubims were on the ark over the mercyseat indicating we are seated with Christ on his throne over all powers.

CHERUBS are COVERING entities. Covering means authority and power. Adam had authority in the Garden over the earth. TRADITION says the king of Tyrus was satan, but that is tradition. It may be right. But I lean towards Adam.

Re: lucifer
 

Adam was a human being, but cherub is a positional picture. Covering and authority. Cherubs are not angels, btw. Try to find the bible saying cherubims were angels. Try to find where the bible says Michael or Gabriel are called cherubim. We have the tradition of cherubs as though they were naked babies with bows and arrows, or else a high level of angelic beings. But that is tradition. To strip away the tradition and leave us only with what the bible actually says reveals that the bible never said they were angels. If Satan was a cherub, then so is Michael and Gabriel. But the bible does not say they are. As I said, Cherubs had EARTHLY creatures' faces. The same four classes of creatures that Adam named. I am not saying they were not actual physical beings God placed in the Garden. But they were creatures solely created for SYMBOLIC imagery and message. They are not angels.

Like you said, lambs actually died and were sacrificed to show the message of Christ's cross. Yet these are different from cherubs ("cherubim" is "cherub" in plural). Cherubim were earthly faced creatures, and stood for the tribes of Israel , the people of God around the Tabernacle. They did not speak of angelic beings.

Re: lucifer
 

wow this has went kinda crazy .. nowhere near topic now are we?

Re: lucifer
 

It's all related, since Lucifer was alleged to be satan and the King of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28, and Ezek 28 called him a CHERUB.

Re: lucifer
 

oh yes bro i understand that , there were other post i was referring too. ,,i like just reading as i can ,, appreciate others view even if it is not like mine ..

i dont belive the devil ever was in heaven ..he was a liar from the beginning.. he was the smith that was created that isiaiah talked about the smith that bloweth the coals..

i dont believe that angels have free will ..

i do believe lucifer was adam ,, and cain was of that wicked one ,which was adam.

i dont think angels or anyother type being has a chance of sneaking around god and trying to dethrone him ,that doctrine is found in the 1st book of imaginations .. chapter 1 lol..

Re: lucifer
 

what bible are you reading??

new world order tranlation :P

Re: lucifer
 

kjv.. try hooked on phonics lol.

Re: lucifer
 

i have been hooked on many things :ouch but phonics wasnt one of them. Infact i sorta slept when i could in english class.

I hate grammer.:beatdeadhorse :thwak

Re: lucifer
 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The passage suggests two separate and distinct classes of entities which were present at creation. The morning stars (plural) and the sons of God (plural).

One entity who specifically has the morning star attributes is Lucifer....

Isa 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Of course there's more than one morning star as indicated by the passage "the morning stars sang together" (plural). But this is a thread about Lucifer, not each morning star identified in the bible so I'll not say anymore about that at this time.

Re: lucifer
 

Satan wasn't these kings... but the spirit of Satan was in them.

One could speak to Adolf Hitler, addressing the satanic spirit operating in him. In fact, many believe that the final antichrist will be possessed of Satan also.

My point... the prophecies were directed to BOTH human kings and Satan himself.

It seems like people always get into "either or camps". It's both. ;)

Re: lucifer
 

I can agree with THAT!

Re: lucifer
 

lol ur crazy i like that in a person lol