Athanasian Creed
 

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Well...that seems to be what some believe here...

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Great example of human clarity!!! And if you don't understand all that and believe it, you will burn in hell!!!! More human definition of the Creator that is so out of control.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

This one is much better.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

well...thought I would put some of the creeds down here..ha...just copied them from the net...

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

trying to see if those on the Godhead debate will write their creed down in simple words...

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Interesting. For me its not language of the actual doctrinal explination I have a problem with, its the absolute tone of it all-- as said above-- believe this OR burn in hell. If man's mind can write these thoughts as they understand (some believe its revealed) them to be, then why can't man also say that as much as they would hope this is the way it goes...there may be a chance that they have gotten it all wrong. Great attempt, but still an attempt. Semantics at its worst...a possible portion of truth at its best.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

I should have put this on the Godhead debate...it is really in the wrong place....now maybe someone can cut and paste a oneness and other creeds...we are studying oneness at our Bible school...

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

This pretty much sums it up for me!

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

I think the Athanasian Creed is way too dogmatic and can be a bit confusing, even if considered "theologically" correct. I'd prefer the Nicene Creed over the Athanasian any day:

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I believe the Apostle's Creed is far more simple... but it isn't as detailed regarding various truths.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

I found this interesting:

Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

i sorta like that one

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My creed in a nutshell.

9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6


2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Tim. 2:5

Jesus is both.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Hear, hear! Who needs a creed when you have it spelled out in scripture?

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

i know .. i can never find in scripture though
repent be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remision of sin and you shall recieve the Holy ghost (with evidence of speaking in other tounges)

the italics part is in not in my bible but i have looked for it though ..

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

This one was formulated to try and unite all the Christians who believed that Jesus was (is) God and to rally them against the Arians who were the dominant sect from the death of Constantine until about the time of the Emperor Theodosius.

The longer "Athanasian Creed" (which had nothing to do with Athanasius himself) came along centuries later and represented something of a bungling of both Tertullian's language and his theology. It would be another 1200+ years before folks finally began to straighten out some of these misapprehensions.

And... I agree. The older "Nicene" creed does represent a good pithy set of statements to which all Christians can identify - though many today would want to make it less pithy.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Modern Trins dont believe Jesus was begotten before all worlds do they? How does that relate to the doctrine of Eternal Son?

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

That is at least the idea behind "the doctrine of the Eternal Son." They ("modern Trins") believe that Jesus (the Eternal Son) was eternally begotten of the Father. That is, the Eternal Son was begotten "before all worlds."

Many Trinitarians, however, believe that the "pre-Bethlehem" Jesus Christ wasn't "the Eternal Son," but rather, He was the Logos; the Word of God. It was the Logos that was "made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father" and not "the Eternal Son" (for which I cannot quote a verse).

John 1:14

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Are you still trying to maintain that Isaiah 9:6, should be interpreted as "everlasting Father?" I though we Oneness people gave up on that long ago when the preponderance of evidence showed it to be a faulty rendering of the KJV.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

AMEN!!!

That's Christianity 101 as far as I am concerned.

I actually confess/speak out that creed as part of my prayers.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

or


I believe in one God who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and His name is Jesus.


that's a little more condensed but it doesn't cover some of the other stuff in The Apostles' Creed.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Amen. My thoughts as well. :thumbsup

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

What? Are you kidding? It is the correct translation. And if "Father of Eternity" WAS the true translation that in no way lessens the force of Oneness doctrine. If anything it would MAGNIFY the truth.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Then it is just a matter of semantics between them and the Arians. Arians believe Jesus was begotten before the worlds. They believe he is the Creator of the worlds. God used him they say as the channel through which he worked.

This is the true understanding of the Godhead. However Trins that hold this like Walter Martin although rejecting the doctrine of an eternal son believe that the Logos was a separate and distinct person from the Father. To me that still multiplies God and makes him more than one.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

It's really more than "semantics." Arians, as you have pointed out, say He was "begotten before the worlds..." Trinitarians say that He was "eternally begotten..." Two different things. "Eternally begotten" is intended to convey the idea that "the Son" has ALWAYS been "proceeding from the Father." That is, "the Son" is as eternal as the Father." Arians would never go for that.

And, Trinitarians hold that "the Son" is as much Deity as "the Father" is. That is something that divides the two groups - historically at times, it has violently divided them.

Yes, it does. At least in my opinion it does. However, I find it interesting that Walter Martin, after years of tangling with Jehovah Witnesses ("Arians") found it needful to amend the "traditional" wording and phrase things in a manner closer to our position. That is a hopeful sign, I think. If we can keep the discussion going, more and more people will see the inadequacies and even the mistaken notions that have crept into Christian doctrine and they may also amend their statements.

Of course we have to be just as careful ourselves. For example, Isaiah 9:6, is actually a colloquialism. The Hebrew word אביעד contains the two stem words "awb" - ("father") and "ad" ("eternity).

The King James translators (and Oneness adherents) were mistaken to think that this was a reference to the "Person" known in Christian Trinitarian theology as "The Father." We rather gleefully have tried to make much out of this confusion, but it really hasn't been helpful in the debate.

In the Hebrew Bible, this phrase is actually a single word - אביעד or "aviad" in modern Hebrew and "abiad" in Biblical Hebrew. This word is a euphemism akin to the Arabic phrases "Mother of All Battles" or "Father of the Sword" (Hebrew and Arabic are cognates of one another). The one called "The father..." of something is said to be skillful in it's use or even "the greatest" in the use of whatever they are said to be "the father..." of (or "mother of...").

Thus, Isaiah 9:6, isn't saying that the "son" who is to be born would be the Person known as "The Father" in Christian theology. It is saying that this "son" would have the attributes of "everlasting" or "eternity." This "son" would literally be "eternal."

... uhm.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Well The Bible I have from the Jewish Publication Society renders it Everlasting Father. The Stearns Jewish Bible renders it "Eternal Father" on page 1561. If Yeshua is the Mighty God then obviously he is the Eternal Father.

Both the Old and New Testament teach there is ONE GOD THAT IS THE FATHER.
2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? Malachi 2:10

8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8:4-6

So it is very much in the spirit of what God is trying to teach us that God is the Father. Oneness doctrine rightly accepts that if Jesus is GOD that he is the Father. Anything else is false doctrine.

So indeed it is NOT Oneness believers who have been discredited by scripture but rather all other faiths who either minimize who the Messiah is or teach God is more than one.

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

Your version is exactly what the Trins teach. Jesus is the Eternal Son. Scripture teaches he is the Eternal Father and the begotten son.

Also according to that what happened to FATHER OF ETERNITY? I find nothing in that phrase that weakens the truth that Messiah is the Father. It only strongly reinforces it!

Re: Athanasian Creed
 

I was straining to be a bit coy with the earlier post. My understanding is that "the Son" had a beginning and thus, is not eternal.

Luke 1:32: When the child was born He was "called the son of the Highest." The angel's words, "He shall be called..." indicates a temporal beginning.

Psalm 2:7: "This day..." also indicates a time within our present temporal continuum and thus is "outside of eternity." The Psalmist here is obviously referring to himself (see also Psalm 89:20-27... "I will make him my firstborn..."). However...

Acts 13:33: Paul applies Psalm 2:7 to Jesus Christ and is clearly indicating that the "This day..." of the Psalm is the day in which Jesus was raised from the dead.

So, even though "the day" of "the Son's" begetting appears to have multiple applications, all of those applications fall within the realm of "time" and not eternity.

You are correct in pointing out that there are many sources which are in agreement with the "Everlasting Father" translation. However, even as you have pointed out, there are many which prefer the "Father of Eternity" translation. And, the "Father of Eternity" partisans generally represent the more recent scholarship on this issue.

For a Trinitarian, to say that "The Son" Who created all things and by Whom all things were created is also the "Source" of eternity does nothing to weaken the Trinitarian case. And to say "Father of Eternity" is the same as to say "the Source of eternity." In this application it is not an identification of the "The Son" as being the same "Person" and the Father.

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