Five-fold ministry
 

DOES IT EXISITS IN THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH?

It should...to truly be Apostolic.

What's being taught about this subject where you fellowship?

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

The 5 fold ministry is alive and well in the Church of Jesus Christ. But, I question some of the teaching in regards to the 5 fold ministry that we hear today. I don't think there is a clear understanding as to just what these ministries entail. What purpose to they serve? What is the nature of each individual ministry? For eaxmple: Just what is an Apostle? How does the ministry and office of the apostle differ from that of an Evangelist? An Apostle is, according to Strongs: 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

In studying about the various NT ministries I have found that the "apostle" often served in church governmental roles. The Bible talks about when disputes or questions arose, they were often presented to the Apostles at Jerusalem for a decision. So, IMO, Apostles would be those charged with the governmental oversight of the churches. They would be the "Presiding Bishops", and or "Regional bishops" of the contemporary churches of today.

Prophets exists, but shouldn't necessarily be confused with "seers". Seers were different from prophets. Seers see visions, prophesy of future events. Prophets come with a specifc divine message from the Lord. The message of the Prophet takes precedence over the visions of the Seer.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Did you cut and paste this? It sounds familiar to a point of view I once read online. No worries if you did, because its still how you view it...I was just wondering the source.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

As for the content of what you posted...I think that's really interesting because the Apostolic church (in doctrine) focuses on making sure everything is done by the pattern Jesus gave to the Apostles (or at least that's the claim). So I would think that a greater emphasis would be placed on the operation of the 5-fold pattern. But in many organizations that claim Apostolic heritage, I don't see it being taught.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Dale Yerton in his book "Foundational Truth" copyright 1984 on page 87 describes what those in the 5 fold ministry do as follows:
Apostles govern
Prophets guide
Evangelists gather
Pastors guard
Teachers ground

Lee Stoneking in his book "Five Fold Ministry and Spiritual Insights" copyright 2003 says the almost the same thing on page 25:
Structurally in the beginning:
Apostles governed
Prophets guided
Evangelists gathered
Pastors guarded
Teachers grounded

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Nope. Not a cut and paster poster, usually. If I do cut and paste, I'll include the source.

And, I sometimes wonder about the NT being the pattern for the church of the last days. The church then was in its infancy. And, its easy to see that the NT church had more than its share of problems... it resembled, in many ways, well, the church of today. I don't know if God is pleased with us aspiring to be the "church of yesterday". But, maybe He wants us to be "the Church of tomorrow", like what Paul envisioned in Eph. 5:27.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Reference Ephesians 4:1-16
Verses 1-6 speak about the one Church, the Body of Christ
Verses 7-11 list 5 offices which Jesus has placed in the Church.
Verse 12 gives the purpose of those offices
Verses 13-16 tell us that those offices will be needed as long as there is a church on earth


Apostles

I have the following notes about 26 people called "apostle" or "messenger" or "he that is sent" who are named.
There are also some who are not named, plus Jesus is called an apostle in the NT.

The original 12 are listed in Matthew 10:1-4 and Luke 6:12-16.

Here is the list according to my notes (don't know for sure where I got these notes or if the word count is accurate)


apostolos -a delegate, one sent with full power of attorney to act in the place of another, the sender remaining behind to back up the one sent, a messenger, delegate

The word occurs 81 times in the NT,
It is translated apostle 78 times,
messenger 2 times,
and he that is sent 1 time.
Apostles in the New Testament
1 Peter, or Simon, or Kefa
2 Andrew
3 James (brother of John)
4 John (brother of James)
5 Philip
6 Batholomew or Nathaniel, brother of Philip
7 James, son of Alphaeus or James the less Mark 15:40
8 Judas, or Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus, son of James,
9 Matthew or Levi of Alphaeus Mark 2:14; Lu 6:15-16
10Thomas or Didymus or Twin
11 Simon the Zealot Acts 1:13
12 Judas Iscariot
13 Matthias Acts 1:26 (Paul refers to him as one of the 12 in I Cor 15:5)
14 Saul or Paul Gal. 1:1; 2:7,8, 1 Timothy 2:7
15 Barnabas Acts 11:22; 13:1-4; 14:1,4,14;I Cor 9:5-6
16 Andronicus Rom 16:7
17 Junia or Junias, or Julia Rom 16:7 (only woman called an apostle)
18 Apollos I Cor 4:6-9
19 James the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19 Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 15:7
20 Timothy I Thess 1:1; 2:6
21 Silas or Silvanus I Thess 1:1; 2:6, Acts 15:22
22 Titus 2 Cor. 8:23 (messenger) Acts 19:22
23 Epaphroditus Phil 2:25 (messenger)
24 Erastus Acts 19:22
25 Judas (Barsabas) Acts 15:22
26 Tychicus 2 Tim 4:12
27 Unnamed brothers 2 Cor 8:23
28 Jesus Christ Heb. 3:1



Prophets in the New Testament
Anna (Luke2:36)
John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)
Paul (1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 1:11), Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen (Acts 13:1)
Agabus (Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10) and unnamed others (Acts 11:27-28)
Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)

Evangelists in the New Testament
Only Philip is called an evangelist ref (Acts 21:8)
We see Philip preaching to a whole city and to an individual in Acts chapter 8.

Pastors in the New Testament
The word “pastor” is not in the KJV NewTestament, “pastors” occurs only in Eph 4:11

Teachers in the New Testament
Paul (1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 1:11), Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen (Acts 13:1, 35)

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

You know that is an excellent point (and thanks also for clearing up the whole cut and paste comment I made earlier)! Wow, I'm going to chew on that for a moment.

They had their schools of thought, there problems, I mean even the very people that hung out PERSONALLY with Jesus came away from the experience with different accounts of the SAME story. Hum....

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

I believe in the five fold ministry...

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Me too.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Because of my upbringing, the Five Fold Ministry was a fairly new concept. We had Reverend, Deacon, Deaconess...um yup that's about all. Oh we also had Pastor, and Minister.

Reverend was reserved for the ordained clergy while Minister suggested that you were not a Pastor, but called to preach.

I'm going to jump around...

Then, I learned of Bishops, Elders...etc. Their functions were different, depending on the organizational structure that was set up by their Presiding board (or whatever the called the governing body).

However, I don't see these roles as being the same-- as in the example you provided above-- Bishops are basically Apostles...etc.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

As a young Christian I went to the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN to learn more about the Bible and to prepare myself for whatever way God might lead me. This school was established in the late 1930's and many UPC officials, ministers, missionaries, etc. received Bible teaching there. I was appalled to hear Bro. Norris (founder and president of the school) teach that there never could be any more apostles than those original 12 and that there could never be any prophets after the first century. He taught that choosing Matthias as an apostle in Acts chapter 1 was a mistake made by the others and that God never recognized him but instead replaced him with the apostle Paul. I hadn't been a Christian long but even I knew that there were about 20 people called "apostle" in the NT. Of course I wondered, if he's wrong about this, what else is he teaching wrong? That sure didn't instill much confidence in me as to the accuracy of a school which had such influence on UPC leadership and ministry.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

The way I understand it, bishop/overseer/episkopos and elder/presbyter are basically the same per 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9. Bishop or overseer speaks of the authority and elder speaks of age and wisdom accumulated.

In Acts 20:17-38 Paul called for a meeting with the elders/presbyters (verse 17) and called them bishops/overseers (verse 28) and told them to shepherd/pastor/feed the congregation (verse 28).

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Well, the fact remains that the 5 fold ministry serves a difinite purpose in todays church. And that purpose will continue for a specfic duration of time.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Somehow, I just don't think we are there yet.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

agreed!

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

speak for yourself
:heeheehee:heeheehee

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

:highfive

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Oh, so you disagree with me? Then, we are not in unity and one of us is imperfect. So, since I'm more apostolic than you, it must be you- you liberal Charsmatic.

:happydance Love ys, Bro. Sam!

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

I believe that the 5 fold ministry is in the church today. We have Pastors, Teachers and Evangelist in the Church, and then we have Apostles and Prophets in the BOOK.

I feel that there are no Apostles or Prophets that are living in the world today, because there are none that can fit the position. The Apostles were called by Jesus and their names are written in the twelve foundations. We do not need any Prophets only the Spirit of prophecy that is one of the gifts of the Spirit. The prophecies have been written in Revelation, and those are the ones that we know that will come to pass. I believe the Bible states that John the baptist was the last of the Prophets. Even though we do not have an Apostle or a Prophet walking in the flesh today, we have the Bible and therefore they are alive in the Church of today.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Oh wow. Um, I disagree seascapes. :)

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Yeah, I'd have to disagree, as well, brother. I believe there are living Apostles and there are living Prophets.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Well we all have our opinions. To be an Apostle or Prophet they will have to be like the Apostles and Prophets in the Bible, and I am sorry I just don't see or hear any living today that can fit that position.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Because you have not personally met them does not mean they do not exist. :)

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

they are here and alive and well ,,, i knwo apostles ,prohpets evang. pastors and teachers. many have minused out the apostle ..
but i do know a few that are really apostles and doing that work.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Thats the way I see it it too Sam.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Its not good to minimize an Apostle by saying they are a Church planter. They are more than that. They are representatives of Jesus Christ. Yes they will establish Churches. They will teach true doctrine and will mark anyone who teaches differently as did the founding Apostles.

They will do mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit. I dont know anyone doing that today but they may be out there somewhere. I know that they will exist in the end time in "Mystery Babylon".

At the destruction of Babylon we read this:

18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. Rev. 18:20

So we know for sure in the last days Apostles will be ministering in Babylon. I could not say with surety they exist right now but am praying for the Father to raise them up.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

The exist. I'm sure.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Oh, and I also agree with what was stated about Apostles not JUST being church planters...etc.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Not to belabor the point (I love using fancy words) but, if that were true, the other also would have to be true. If present day A and P must be like those of Bible days, wouldn't P, E and T be held to the same level of qualification?

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Right :)

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Huh....hello?

Has no one here ever heard the name William Marrion Branham, the forerunner of the 2nd coming of Christ, the Elijah and 7th Church Age Messenger, God's only vindicated and infallible Prophet to the Laodecian Church Age? The very Voice of God in this closing Hour of the Church Age?

Where's Dr. Vauhgn when we need him?

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

That's a lot of weight to put on one person. Scary even. But yes, I've heard of him. :)

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Last I heard the Doctor was doin time.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Really? Please then. Please. Tell me who they are.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Those are things I've heard Bro. Branhan referred to as over the years. In fact, I was an ardent follower in my younger days. But one thing kept bothering me.
Branham, in "hinting" at his divine call, spoke of the angel that appeared over the Ohio while he was baptizing in 1933 who announced: "As John the Baptist was sent as a forerunner of the 1st Coming, you are the forerunner of the 2nd Coming." Then, Bro. Branham compared his ministry of that of Johns. Both came from poor stock, both were "men of the wilderness', both had "harsh" ministries, especially against women.

But I noticed one place where the similarties ended. John was alive when the Messiah made His appearance, and even introduced Him as "the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world".

Bro. Branham, whose ministry was in sharp decline due to his controversial teachings, died in Dec. 1965 of injuries sustained in a car accident. He did not live to see the 2nd coming. If in fact, he is actually dead. Check out Voice of God Recordings and you'd wonder the same thing. Some believe he is not dead, but has been "carried away into the wilderness" until the time of the 7th trumpet. Or something like that. Pretty weird stuff comin' out of Jeffersonville these days.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

No, no, no. the good "doctor" isn't doing time. He is being severely persecuted for faith in God's last day Messenger.

T. Grady Reece of Franklin, NC was a prophet if there ever was one. He brought a message in the 80's the church is yet to here. At lease, thats my humble opinion.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

Luke 16:15 .. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 11: 13 ….For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.....

NOT... William Marrion Branham

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

I agree. Bro Branham, IMO, though a good man and maybe even a prophet for his day, was not as his current followers believe.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

I believe the forerunner before the coming of Jesus Christ is the manifestations of the sons of God.

Romans 8:14 ...For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Until the Church goes out into the world, instead of the world coming into the Church, the manifestations will not come forth. Notice the book of Revelation is written to the seven churches. The true Church has ALL the nine gifts.

I Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Re: Five-fold ministry
 

We, the Church, are doing exactly what Noah did, telling people that Jesus will soon return. We, the Church, are doing exactly what John the baptist did, pointing out to people ...Jesus Christ, the Lamb that was sacrificed for all.

Praise the Lord, I love this.....We are the forerunners !