Spirit and Letter
 

Can some apostolics be living by the letter of acts 2:38, but not the spirit of the NT? Can some christians who have not obeyed acts 2:38, yet live just, righteous or holy lives? (including baptists who haven't spoken in tongues)

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

A person cannot live a holy life without the baptism of the Holy Ghost since it is power within to depend upon in order to be empowered. But you can have the Holy Ghost and not live a holy life either due to walking after the flesh and not after the very Spirit within.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Tounges is a gift of the Spirit, The initial evidence doctrine came about in the 1900's

Paul asked rhetoric questions
do all prophesy?
Do all Speak with tounges? ofcourse the answer is no.

The Spirit is the seal of God and is what changes a persons Life. Infact That person is impowered to have a change. So if they are producing fruits for the Lord they are filled with the Spirit.

Jesus Himself said you will know my desciples by their fruits.
also in mark 16:17-18 He said these signs would acompany those who believe. when did we limit the Holy spirit to tounges? Some prophesied as well.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

A person can live a Holy Life, when following The Law. However, the Holy Ghost gives us to power to overcome The Law (not replace, but to wholly fulfill it).

Jesus told the Pharisees that they were like a cup. Clean and Holy on the outside, but filthy on the inside.

Jesus will change you on the inside, and make your Holy on the outside.

However, today we understand "Holiness" to be both internal and external.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Jesus Fullfilled the Law, we dont do that. We fullfill the rightous requirements through Him. Cause we broke the law. The law of Moses had customs and such that we as gentiles was excluded from or didnt have todo. The Jewish christians was still zealous for the law, they wanted to be circumsized, they kept the feast days and sabbaths.

Paul made a comment to the jewish counsel that stated why should we place upon the gentiles a burden that we are selves cannot carry.

so one must define what law is. cause only one man ever kept the Law of Moses and that was Jesus.

The Spirit empowers us to walk in a godly manner. and to wage war against the lust of the flesh and sin.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

AMEN, Bro. Blume!!:highfive

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

No offense intended to anyone, but if one is not even speaking with tongues by the Spirit's utterance, then how does one expect to live a holy life without the Spirit's empowerment.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

because they are many gifts of the Spirit, and we should desire them all but paul stressed mostly that we should seek to prophesy to edify the church.

and none taken I believe in Speaking in tounges. i just dont agree with the initial evidence doctrine.

However one cant exclude the ofther gifts at work in a persons life just because they dont speak in tounges.

1 corinthians 12:30-31

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

We disagree on the purpose of tongues in the bible, so our views cannot relate, anyway.

I stand by my words. God bless!

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Many confuse the initial evidence (receiving of the Giver) in Acts, with the gift of tongues in Corinthians. Same Spirit! The initial pouring out or receiving of the Spirit was at Pentecost. Those that have received the Spirit are now eligble for the gifts of the Spirit, as in Corinthians. You won't be receiving gifts of the Spirit until you have first received the SPIRIT! Paul was speaking to the church at Corinth! Teaching on the usage or regulating of the gifts in this church.

Falla39

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

the initial pouring out had firey tounges over there head, and people could understand what these people was saying. However today we dont know what they are saying. unless one interprets.

and if a interpretor is needed then it must be the gifts of the spirit.

in another part of the bible they also prophesied would one have to prophesy as well to show that they recieved spirit baptism. again the word charisma which is related to the gifts of the spirit, is the same word used in ephesians 2:8-9 the free Gift (charisma) of God is eternal life.

One must balance the bible.

I agree we need the Spirit, I do agree that tounges is a evidence of the Spirit but it it not the onlt one, we have isolated one gift of the Spirit and made it a mandatory experience.

we have people today who are self sacrificing for the Kingdom of God who never spoke in tounges, yet the evidence is the fruit they bear in labor for our precious Lord. Fruits galations 5:22

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Most people confuse the tongues that occurred at the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost with the babel that goes on in most churches today. The tongues on Pentecost was not ecstatic utterances and stammered syllables that we hear most often today, it was ACTUAL human languages given at a time when many languages were gathered together so that the message could be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD in each listeners native language.

I do believe in the gift of unknown tongues, the tongue of men and angels and I do believe that it is a gift, but I do not believe that it is and I further find no BIBLICAL PROOF that it is essential to Salvation.

How can anyone repent unless the Spirit draw him? How can the Spirit draw him if He doesn't take up residence until after someone has "tarried" and begged to receive Him??

We need to take a look at what we teach, we need to Study to shew ourselves approved and quit preaching something just because its all we have ever been taught, We are APOSTOLIC, we need to get back to APOSTOLIC doctrine and leave the rest alone!!!

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

It annoys me that you guys are so arrogant saying that the tongues spoken on the day of Pentecost are not what they speak now?

Even if the 120 in the upper room each spake in one known tongue each, that's on 120 different languages.

The invaluable Ethnologue quotes 6909 living languages. Keyword there is Living Tongues. That does not include ancient tongues and dialects that are dead, unknown, or unheard. You would have to have thousands of linguists at each receiving of the Holy Ghost to determine what that language is for that one persons speaking.

Who are you to question how God can work?

Back when Pentecost was first forming, they used to think they could just go to China and speak in tongues to preach. However that was not the way it works. I have had missionaries tell me that the have been in parts of the world where people have not even heard English. I mean at all. Bush countries. And when a person started to receive the Holy Ghost, they started to talk in plain, American English. Others at the same place, in Spanish. Etc. All at the same place. Different countries. Different Missionaries.

To tell me this does not happen here in America, just because you, or the person next to you can not understand what you are saying, that it must not be true, is complete arrogance.

We were given a narrative by the Apostle Luke on the workings, and actions of the First Church, not a Scientific Data Analyses of every encounter, language, and person that it happened to, throughout the first 100 years.

He wrote it like the following:
1) Story #1 with some details (narrative, story telling, with only Key Notes on message given)
2) Story #2, point back to what happened at what #1, same happened at #2 with different people
3) Story #3, less detail then #2, but same thing that happened at #1 (cause I already told you how it happens)

That is how the Book of Acts was written. For those of you that claim, well it does not specifically state that in such'n'such verse that they did that. It's because, he does not have to retail the story of Chapter 2, 30 different times.

If it happens, it happens JUST like Acts Chapter 2.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

First of all, I don't believe that my reply was one bit arrogant, I was simply stating fact. I didn't say that people today do not speak in natural languages, I just said that most of what we hear today is just gibberish.

I believe that people can be given an earthly or a heavenly language, what ever Father sees fit to give them. And I don't question how God chooses to move, God gives as He wills.

The comment about back when Pentecost was first forming? Pentecost is a Jewish feast, it has been a set festival since levitical times. Sorry maybe that statement was a bit arrogant, but I had to correct the misuse of Pentecost.

And I didn't one time say it doesn't happen in America, I speak, pray and sing in tongues on a daily basis and I don't have any idea what language I speak, I have been told I speak German, Russian and several other languages, I have no clue, it isn't to edify my flesh its for my spirit.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

I see both points of view here. The "gibberish" has a LOT to do with the type of experience people are now receiviing at the traditional "pentecostal altars" Before someone get wrapped around the axle over that statement ask yourself this question: How many times have you either been prayed for (or prayed for a seeker) during the altar call, held up their arms, whispered in there ear to "let go", spoke in tongues audibly in order to somehow influence the outcome. IT HAPPENS. And then when someone DOES stammer (sometimes out of sheer exhaustion) talk about a hoedown! I'm NOT talking about the genuine experience. I am talking about our "helping" people to receive something that GOD has already staked His (incarnate) life on. When the desire to have all of what GOD has promised is greater than the desire to go to church to GET that experience people WILL receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Amen. Those of us who believe tongues is initial evidence of Spirit baptism recognize there is a fleshly version many people employ, and we are against the "see-my-tie-come-tie-my-tie" coaching.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Amen and Amen, Bro. Blume!:highfive

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Got any videos?

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Define "Letter of" and "Spirit of" and give us the methodology for figuring out what the Spirit of the NT is...that seems rather subjective to me.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

I was just ruminating on my own life. I have followed acts 2:38, but I don't currently follow any holiness standards. While my bil, who is trinitarian pentecostal, hasn't followed acts 2:38, but lives an apparent life of holiness. Just using aff as a diary of thoughts.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

trinitarians have the same Spirit as apostolics. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into One Body.we seperate people with labels. God doesnt. He goes to those who love Him and seek Him.

That is why pentacostals and charasmatics have great moves of the Spirit, not because they are trinitarian or Oneness. Those who have the Spirit, have recieved the Spirit of Adoption, they have recieved the Promise

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

why teach baptism in jesus name and the oneness of god if it doesn't make a difference in someone's life or salvation, if everyone who has the spirit is part of one body?

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Oh, well I don't see how Acts 2:38 relates to standards

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

Yes, we need to quit telling anyone they have the HG. It should be real to the receiver without our input.

On a Sun afternoon a couple weeks ago I met my husband after work for dinner out.(I work 3 of 4 Sundays).
AS we ate I was overhearing the conversation of several black saints seated at tables behind me.
Then the topic switched to the Holy Ghost and how people try to assist someone seeking it. In any event, on this discussion, I was forced to turn around and join the conversation :foottap.
In essence this was the topic. Although their understanding of the Holy Ghost differed from mine.........we agreed that God is the giver and we should let God take care of it.

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

who said i teach that? i use to but i dont now. I dont even believe in the way the Oneness view of God is, Just like in trinitarianism there are many different views of the Godhead held by many different people. I have my own as well

I believe baptism should be done, However to me it doesnt make a difference if they baptize according to matthew 28:19 or acts 2:38

there is a non denominational pentacostal church close to where we live, they will baptize you in what ever manner you choose to be baptized.

they are like me, they have realized its not about what the preacher speaks over you,(cause that means the power to remit sins is placed in the hands of the baptizer) but its more about the person and their faith and acting on it. In both cases Jesus is professed by the one being baptized, just like the ethiopian did before phillip baptized them.

So i dont see any contridiction in the bible according to this,

Re: Spirit and Letter
 

problem is (Commonsense) is when people go to the alter, they are not seeking the Holy Ghost, they are seeking tounges. and so they come to the alter and beg God for tounges, and sometimes over and over.

I actually told a man dont be asking God for tounges. Just love worship and praise Him. He said the Promise is a gift. Its a gift from God, why are you up here begging for a sign, and not asking God for Spirit.

He said how much more would i give the Spirit if they Just ask me.

The Spirit falls in praise and worship, I have seen many times that when there is a atmosphere of praise we see the Holy Ghost move on the service.

But just in my personal experience, when people give praise to God and verbalize that praise, many times the spirit Moves on them.