David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Has anyone read it?

We are studying it in our Bible School...

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

the oneness of god and the new birth have free online versions here:

http://www.newlifeupc.org/resources/...-bernard/books

sis alvear, did you see my post asking you about eliane silva? have you heard of her?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I don't like it. It was not done well and or he did not think it through. While trying to avoid Nestorianism, he actually comes out with a Nestorian view point.

Some of his points can be construed to imply the Son was just a man or just a nature while other points might clear that up, Im afraid it still leads to a lot of confusion

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

For those who believe that "Father" and "Son" are speaking of the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ the book is probably the best there is...

However, concerning Jesus, I believe the Father/Son distinction to be external rather than internal.

Question: To be truly Nestorian would one not need to teach Christ was two "persons"?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

can you givea brief description of christ's nature that is more clear than db?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

are you saying that you don't believe the father indwelt christ?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

No maam but I probably need to order it. I love Bro Bernards writings. Espec love his books on revival.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

One would need to assert the distinction between the Divine nature and Human nature and then either assert each was a person or attribute Personal actions to each nature

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Human natures don't pray. Persons pray because and by means OF their human nature

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. John 17:21

Beyond that, the essence of Christ's divinity was ontologically the same as the Father.

However, I think the term "Father" generally is a reference to God apart from and beyond the incarnation, while "Son" is a reference to God as he revealed Himself in and through the incarnation.

IMO the entire meaning gets jumbled when Oneness Pentecostals proclaim "Jesus is the Father and the Son!" It is simply not necessary to go there to show Jesus is human and divine. Nor is it necessary to go there to show a singular person of God.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Right. I see what you are saying.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Im always careful to say it was a Person praying, the Person of God and He was praying because of His human nature. He became Human.

It was not a nature that prayed

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I agree that christ as a human prayed, how then do you explain his divinity? Are you saing he had one nature? In his divinity he answered prayer and had no need to pray.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I believe that Bishop David Barnard is very well intentioned but very mistaken. He knows what he has been taught all his life and that is the UPC version of who God is. That is what his Oneness Theology is about - what HE thinks about God.
God never has been more than one. He is God, He is one. To fuss and fight over God being ONE is so ignorant to me as Jews, Muslims & Christians believe that GOD IS ONE!
To have an elitist and sectarian mentality like most in the UPC do - that "we have something that nobody else has" is just deceptive.
What they preach the A/G, IPHC, COG, COGOP, CH and others believe that there are three gods - is simply deceptive. They do NOT believe that! I certainly never believed it and was raised and educated in a "Trinitarian" Church and College. People outside the UPC think they are NUTS when they inform them - "YES, YOU BELIEVE IN THREE GOD'S"! How crazy! All because it has been DRILLED INTO THEM that that is what these people believe!

Brother Barnard is a good man, he played by their rules and built a great church and moved up the ranks and I think any man that can write books and define the doctrine for a movement should be the Bishop of it. He did it. It shows you the power of writing and getting books out there. J.L Hall & David Barnard wrote the doctrine for the UPC. They defined it. They locked it in. The UPC had been evolving doctrinally since it started but these guys put it in concrete and THIS IS HOW IT IS AND WHAT WE NOW BELIEVE!

Even though I preach repentance and faith in God, I baptize in the Name of Jesus Christ and preach the baptism of the Holy Ghost - it is not enough for them - it has to be EXACTLY how they say it & look like they tell you too.
Like I said to my Bishop here in Georgia when I left the UPC in December 1999 - I love you - I just can't live in the same house with you!

Oh and...I did read the Oneness of God and all his other books when I was in the UPC and did not believe them then and sure don't believe them now. But... He is a good man as far as I know!

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

No. sorry...I have not heard of her...I will ask some of our young people.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

well, we are still reading the first chapter...but I told them I might not agree with all the opinions but I do believe God is one...we have very little good material along some lines...we do have Gorden McGee's IS JESUS IN THE GODHEAD OR THE GOD HEAD IN JESUS.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Do any of you oneness folks have any good material that we might use?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Im saying that natures neither pray nor receive prayer. The definition of Nature is "those qualities or attributes that make someone whatever kind of being they are"

Qualities don't pray.

A Person prayed and a Person received those prayers

The Son is that Person incarnate, Person and Divine nature hypostatically joined with a Human nature

The Father is that same Person transcendent Being God in person, nature and operation (We call them modes of being).

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/#proper

DB's stuff is introductory with an *

I wish he would re-write it and clear up the confusion

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

[quote=AtlantaBishop;1077909]To have an elitist and sectarian mentality like most in the UPC do - that "we have something that nobody else has" is just deceptive.
quote]
A LOT of trinitarians have the same attitude towards OPs and JWs and even Muslims

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Yeah, there's always a lot of that going around. Personally, I'm glad that I'm better than all of those kinds of people in that, I am humble. I'm too good to be an "elitist."

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

To wit and Forsooth! Pelathius is more humble than us all, so he says :heeheehee

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

sis alvear, you can find eliane silva on youtube. I believe she sings prophetic music in portugese.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

been listening to her this morning...beautiful..I am going to see if our people know her..

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

so the way you are saying it, one person prayed to another person or are you saying one mode prayed to another mode? Or did Jesus pray to his own spirit?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

What I said was One Person is both God transcendent (Father) and God incarnate (Son)

A Person prayed. A Person heard those prayers. Natures do not pray. Natures explain WHY a person might pray. Nature explains what KIND of Person might NEED to pray.

As God transcendent HE functioned as Deity only and as God incarnate He functioned exclusively through the Humanity only. So that as the Son He was fully human with a Human mind and will

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I guess the answer to all those questions would be "yes" depending on whom you asked.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

ok, that sounds pretty clear. let me ask you, what do you think is the difference between a believer with the holy ghost and god manifest in the person of jc. Do you think jc had the same limitations as belevers with the hg?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

prax, what historical christology do you most agree with? and who was its' major proponent?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

Did not the writer of Hebrews say HE PRAYED IN THE DAYS OF his flesh?

He was given the Spirit with no measure ....

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

a believer is an already existing human person who receives God's Spirit by faith

Jesus is a pre-existing Person who Pre-exists as God Himself, the One Divine Spirit being who is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. He became human by adding Human attributes to Himself

Jesus had the same Limitations simply because He had the same Human attributes as we do and He willingly limited Himself to them (phl 2)

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I would say Modalistic Monarchism or Sabellianism sans the sequential bit, a close second is Economic Trinitarianism sans any notion of distinct hypostasis

Praxeas, Sabellian, Noetus are some names that come to mind. Later on Servetus (though some Unitarians would disagree) and William Penn

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

some of them some of the time... it seems.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

I think all of them all of the time as the Son

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

read it, very boring, and i agree with prax it has nestorian type of views and in other work he does contrictict stuff that he already written in this book.

this book is one of the suggested readings for anyone wanting a upci liscense

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

prax has accepted jason dulles theology on the Godhead, and modalistic monachanism doesnt do justice describing the godhead either.

i dont believe God has 2 modes of comsmic transcendent as described by dulle,

cause there is both external and internal differences

we have two totally different wills, 2 minds of thinking one from the father and one from the son. Though United in purpose.

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

suggested or required?

Re: David Bernard´s book on oneness
 

they actually give you options, but your eventually gonna have to read some of his books to get ordained.

however if you dont read this suggested book then your really out of the loop.


http://resources.upci.net/432683.pdf