We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fire
 

I WAS BRUSHING UP ON MY APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS...ETC AND RAN ACROSS THIS SHOCKER. I JUST DONT KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS. I DECIDED TO POST IT HERE TO SEE WHAT YOU ALL HAD TO SAY. HERE IT IS...WOW.:foottap

We Are Not Baptized in Holy Ghost AND with Fire!
Posted on June 4, 2011 by admin
I have heard many preachers over the years talk about how we are baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire. It was just ingrained in me over the years and never really questioned it.

I was getting ready to preach an evangelistic message and was testing the look of a Powerpoint presentation on the the platform screen. My title had something to do with the Holy Ghost. The background for the title page was fire. A pastor friend who saw it said. “What’s with the fire?” Then he gave me a quick little Bible study. It took about sixty seconds for me to see it.

If you read the verse before and after Matthew 3:11, I think you will see that the Church is baptized the the Holy Ghost, but never with fire. Please do a word study of the word fire in the New Testament. Fire always refers to the punishment and not to the church.

John the Baptist said that “He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire” because he was talking to those that would be saved, as well as those that would not be saved. Those that are lost will be baptized (submersed) in the lake of fire. Fire has nothing to do with the church.

Matthew 3:10-12
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I have heard that angle before, from a Church of Christ minister. He said that the believers were to be baptized (immersed) in the Holy Ghost while the unbelievers would later be immersed in the Lake of Fire. I don't think this is particular to the Church of Christ, that's just where I first came across the idea.

It is hard to be too dogmatic here, imho.

The believer is described as "passing through fire" (Isaiah 43:2, Daniel 3:25-27). Zechariah 13:9, states specifically that God would bring His people through the fire to "refine" them as silver is refined. Malachi 3:2-3, uses this same image to describe the purifying of the priests in the Second Temple era. Though these are Old Testament passages, it's not too hard to see the New Testament applications as well.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15, describes how every man's work shall be tried by fire. Not the same as the man himself being "baptized in fire," but if you've ever really poured yourself into something I think it's pretty easy to see this as being close to the same thing.

1 Peter 4:12-13, speaks of the "fiery trials" that the believer will inevitably go through... "think it not strange concerning the fiery trial..."

The early Pentecostal movement was predicated upon a very strong desire among its adherents to be able to "do more" and to "experience more" of the presence of God. Since God's presence is sometimes compared to a "consuming fire" (Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 9:3 and Hebrews 12:29) being close to or even being "immersed" in the presence of God might be considered a "baptism of fire" by many.

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Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist says that the one Who would come after him (Jesus Christ) would "baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire..." Luke also quotes this statement (Luke 3:16). Later, in Acts 1:5, Luke gives us the words of Jesus Christ just before His ascension into heaven. Here, Jesus is clearly interacting with John's earlier words and calls the baptism of the Holy Ghost "the promise of the Father."

Noticeably, Jesus does NOT say, "... and you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost AND FIRE not many days hence." He just remarks upon the baptism of the Holy Ghost. However, when the Hold Ghost does come to baptize the believers, the Spirit is accompanied with fire.

The whole "issue" seems sort of iffy to me - both sides of it. My impression from the past was that folks like my Church of Christ friend would probably dismiss the "... and with fire..." part from the believer's experience because so many "Pentecostal types" used that saying to "ignite" an uncomfortable level of enthusiasm in their worship and other behaviors. I was probably wrong to associate the idea exclusively with "Church of Christ types" - but that was just my experience as a younger minister.

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Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

STRANGELY, this article was found on a site called "Apostoic Voice."

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

It's often been said that the Campbellite movement had a great impact upon the the development of many Apostolic and Pentecostal doctrines. There are even folks here who speak of the "Campbellite Captivity of the Church" when discussing baptism "for the remission of sins."

But then again, I admittedly don't really have anything other than my own anecdotal experience to offer to try and tie the "immersion in the Lake of Fire" idea with Luke 3:16 and Matthew 3:11, to the "Church of Christ types." I tried to see it my friend's way and it I could see where he was coming from... I just couldn't accept being dogmatic about it - any more than I could be dogmatic about the other side either.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

We are to study line upon line..and there are many references to the Holy Spirit being FIRE so I don't buy the article. :)

So yup, I'm still saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost, and that with a mighty burning FIRE! :)

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

How can you not see that Acts Chapter 2 is a fulfillment Matthew 3:11?
So when the Holy Ghost was given, so was the Fire.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I can see it lol. That's why... oh maybe you were talking about the writer of the article.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

There are different opinions among Christians on this.

1. Some believe a baptism of fire is a second work of the Holy Spirit after regeneration in which the "old nature" is burned out. This is called sanctification. Then, the HGB or Holy Ghost Baptism is a third work following sanctification. You will hear someone testify that they are saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost.

2. Some believe John was preaching and offering two alternatives to the people. Either submit to the Lord and let Him baptize you in/with the Holy Spirit or later He will baptize you in/with fire He will plunge you into the lake of fire).

3. Some believe a baptism in fire is a baptism/soaking/overwhelming with trials --fiery trials-- to purge and purify.

4. Some believe fire is just symbolic of how the Holy Spirit works i.e. fire can purify, heat, give light, protect, etc.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

The fire is the judgment of God where the burning occurs in antithesis to the Spirit baptism which is positive.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

1) No arguments there. Weither all at once, or one step at a time.
2) I don't see how John was giving an alternative. He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost AND WITH fire. Not Holy Ghost or Fire.
3) The Holy Ghost does test and try us.
4) Hmm, perfect example of how the Holy Ghost Fire works!

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

First time hearing that perspective. I'll add it to my collection of commentary. However, I believe I've been baptized with the fire of the Holy Ghost. :):thumbsup

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

Have not read all the posts, but if this is not already noted the text itself shows judgment for some and Holy Ghost for others. Not fire and Spirit for the same group.

Mat 3:10-12 KJV And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

That's what some say.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

So do you further conclude like the author of the article- that the Holy Ghost is NOT fire?

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I remember the words from a song we used to sing years ago:


"...It's like fire shut up in my boned
It's like honey right out of the comb,
It's the Holy Ghost that Jesus is giving away....."

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

SO MANY SONGS I could quote but a few are:

FIRE FIRE FIRE, FIRE FALL ON ME
ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST, FIRE FALL ON ME
(JAMACIAN SONG I HEARD)

JUST LIKE FIIIIIIIIIRE (SHUT UP IN MY BONES) 3X
HOLY GHOST FIRE, SHUT UP IN MY BONES!

BUT LINDA GIBSON COMES TO MIND

HOLY GHOST AND FIRE,
UPPER ROOM POWER
FELL UPON ME, SPOKE IN TONGUES
GOT IN MY MOUTH AND IT DIDNT TAKE LONG
IT WENT FROM MY HEAD TO THE SOLE OF MY FEET
ALL IN MY SOUL AND ITS ALL OVER ME

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

If it is not talking about the fire which occured at Pentecost, then why the fire on their heads? The bigger question for me is why does this not occur today? Would it be any more miraculous than speaking in "other tongues"? I think so, and it would actually be irrefutable evidence.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

AGREED :thumbsup

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

What about those of us who believe that all of the above are in operation and applicable at least some of the time?

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

There is a good thought.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

ISBE
Not always with judgement
Fire in the Old Testament is specially associated with the Divine presence, e.g. in the making of the Covenant with Abraham (Gen_15:17), in the burning bush. (Exo_3:2-4), in the pillar of fire (Exo_13:21), on Sinai (Exo_19:18), in the flame on the altar (Jdg_13:20). Yahweh was "the God that answereth by fire" (1Ki_18:24, 1Ki_18:38). In the Law, therefore, sacrifices and offerings (including incense) were to be made by fire (Exo_12:8, Exo_12:9, Exo_12:10; Lev 1). Fire from Yahweh signified the acceptance of certain special and separate sacrifices (Jdg_6:21; 1Ki_18:38; 1Ch_21:26). In Lev_9:24 the sacrificial fire "came forth from before Yahweh." The altar-fire was to be kept continually burning (Lev_6:12, Lev_6:13); offering by "strange fire" (other than the sacred altar-fire) was punished by "fire from before Yahweh" (Lev_10:1, Lev_10:2). Fire came from heaven also at the consecration of Solomon's Temple (2Ch_7:1).

Fire was an emblem (1) of Yahweh in His glory (Dan_7:9); (2) in His holiness (Isa_6:4); (3) in His jealousy for His sole worship (Deu_4:24; Heb_12:29; Psa_79:5; perhaps also Isa_33:14); (4) of His protection of His people (2Ki_6:17; Zec_2:5); (5) of His righteous judgment and purification (Zec_13:9; Mal_3:2, Mal_3:3; 1Co_3:13, 1Co_3:15); (6) of His wrath against sin and punishment of the wicked (Deu_9:3; Psa_18:8; Psa_89:46; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:33, "a Topheth is prepared of old"; Mat_3:10-12; Mat_5:22, the Revised Version (British and American) "the hell of fire," margin "Greek, Gehenna of fire"; see Isa_30:33; Jer_7:31; Mat_13:40, Mat_13:42; Mat_25:41, "eternal fire"; Mar_9:45-49; see Isa_66:24; 2Th_1:7; Heb_10:27; Jud_1:7); (7) of the word of God in its power (Jer_5:14; Jer_23:29); (8) of Divine truth (Psa_39:3; Jer_20:9; Luk_12:49); (9) of that which guides men (Isa_50:10, Isa_50:11); (10) of the Holy Spirit (Act_2:3); (11) of the glorified Christ (Rev_1:14); (12) of kindness in its melting power (Rom_12:20); (13) of trial and suffering (Psa_66:12; Isa_43:2; 1 Pet 17; 1Pe_4:12); (14) of evil (Pro_6:27; Pro_16:27; Isa_9:18; Isa_65:5); lust or desire (Hos_7:6; Sirach 23:16; 1Co_7:9); greed (Pro_30:16); (15) of the tongue in its evil aspects (Jam_3:5, Jam_3:6); (16) of heaven in its purity and glory (Rev_15:2; see also Rev_21:22, Rev_21:23).

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

it could mean two things, as one pointed out possible lake of fire.

but me personally i believe its a refiners Fire, us going through getting purged by Gods consumming fire.

old testament shadow, the 3 hebrews boys tossed into the fire, the only thing that was burned off was their ropes that bound them. The fire is some what of the tool that made them free.

the Holy Ghost enters us and begins purging us, with a spiritual fire, to burn up the things that have bound us in life, addictions, depressions, etc

"... in all the land, two parts shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left. And I will put this third into the fire, and Refine them as silver, and test them as gold. They will call on My Name, and I will answer and say, 'They are My people'; and they will say, 'Yahweh is my Elohim!!!'." (Zec 13:9)

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap. (Malachi 3:2)

just my thoughts

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

The baptism of the Holy Ghost without the baptism of fire is serious malady of this latter day church. Fire, which is not speaking of anything infernal but rather of heat, fervency or even passion generated by love. Love is the fire. Too many are being baptized with the Holy Ghost without the love of God that dictate a lifestyle of fervency and passion. Too often a convert will arise from the altar of Spirit baptism to return to the world and worldly ways having loved this present world more than the love of God.

"...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with (fervent, intense passion) fire..."

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

We need a revival of Holy Ghost fire. We are experiencing this at my home church, with the fire of the Spirit fueling our lives, burning out the chaff in our fields, and harvesting the wheat for the Kingdom. Those who are against the fire are so because of their own desire to stay as they are.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I hate to sound greedy but I have on a couple of occasions had fire on my head or I should say the sensation of fire..it is the anointing..it felt like a single flame sat on my head as I was praying on a valentines day in 92 alone at my Church.. I was sad because I was alone ..I was in the gymnasium and the lights were turned off as I was circling praying in tongues, I could see no flame but it just felt like I had one siting on my head....

also you'll find that cloven tongues of fire sat on the heads of the original bunch in Acts 2:3..
and I have been feeling that anointing on my head lately..It must have been yesterday it felt like a crown on my head;

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I believe it has a lot to do with the level of the Word of God in you...the first people had a lot of the Word of God in them from the time they could talk all the way through their lives...

Me ??? I had one rhema (quickened) word...John 15:7 and I got rivers of living water and stammering lips...that was cut short because of a false god came up while I was being filled..the Holy Spirit showed me this in January this year...34 years later..that false god is gone and there is nothing here but Jesus.:happydance

and I anticipate a massive refilling Tsunami type..I have more than 50 rhemas in me and I also anticipate up to 195 of them..and I expect to leave a massive wake in my path of salvations where ever I go..:happydance

this will teach the devil not to ever mess with me again..:heeheehee

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

Not so, I don't believe, there were no unbelievers around when the Holy Ghost fell....the irrefutable evidence is and should be Christ in us...:highfive

today the level of the Word of God is not as deep in us as it was in them in Acts chapter 2...
the spirit and the Word are one...the level of the Word the amount of the spirit..:heeheehee

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

When John was speaking there were pharisees in the crowd too, that's why fire for some, spirit for others. In Acts 1:5 it was Jesus and the apostles, no mention of fire.


:doggyrun

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

I sat here and something just popped into my head about this issue. Fire, as many have said here, is a sign of the judgment of God, as well as a purifier. That purification is judgement on our lives now. It is a cleansing that we turn our face towards God and seek Him to work His holiness within our lives for His glory. So, if we are truly wanting the baptism of the Holy Ghost, it is also part of it that we receive the baptism of fire as well, that God through His Spirit purges and purifies His temple for His glory.

I would rather have the fire of Him down here that eternal fires in Hell.

Just my $0.02 worth on the issue.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

don't run off little doggie...read Acts chapter two..When the Holy Ghost came cloven tongues of fire sat upon the heads of each of them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in unknown tongues...

Romans 12 :20 says you can heap coals of fire on your enemies head when you do good to him..and also in Proverbs 25:22 it says the same things..This means to me that when you do these things to them that hate you, that your faith in the promise will change your enemy to become your friend and companion in salvation..Our ignorance to this may explain why we have such confusion about this...The original Christians converted the whole of the Roman Empire without ever shedding the blood of their enemies...these same Christians today in heaven share the joy and pleasure over ever sinner that repenteth...Why????

because every soul saved today is a result of their faith in the Lord in their time...
And think about it..they killed no one..They are mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 even before they became Christians ....and they are separate from those old goats in revelation 6:14-17 :happydance:heeheehee

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

Not sure I follow your logic-- and this is also inclusive of the other post about the rhemas in you. Care to clarify?

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

First let us consider who they were who first received..They were Jews. They, all of them, lived from childhood reciting the oral Torah or reading and obeying every commandment in it..They knew the Torah like lawyers today know the law of our constitution..So when the Holy Spirit fell on them it was more powerful because the Spirit and the Word agree..and where the Word of the Lord is there is power...

A rhema is the living word or the Word come to life. The law is the written Word..It is dead, because it kills, as it says the letter killeth but the spirit gives life..So when the Spirit of the Lord comes all that Word or letter called in greek (logos ) is quickened or made alive..

Now we read the bible seeking understanding, and like the Jews we are looking for the absolutes in order that we may live accordingly knowing that we shall fall or fail anyway.. :heeheehee hence the Holy Spirit is come to lead us and guide us into all the truth..So he makes alive the word to you line upon line and precept upon precept as in Isaiah 28 :9-13 , Psalms 16:6-7 is another where David says , the lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places.. Hebrews 8:10..God is says that he will write his laws into the hearts and minds of Israel ..This is taken from Jeremiah 31;31-34 says it is the new covenant that he will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah....

This is not preached much anywhere no. It happened to me..:happydance And oh how much I marvelled and wondered..They come from the Holy Ghost and they come in a way so that you know that it is him, and no mistake about it..It began in Thanksgiving of 91, and proceeded to be about once a month or three weeks or so , sometimes even two in a day like once this year in January.. Sometimes he does not say anything for more than a year..but I expect a total of 195 before it's over.. ..

because one of the lines was , "five times received I forty stripes less one of of the Jews ...:heeheehee ....

it is written The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant....

and he said it would be line upon line and precept upon precept..

here is one of my favorites; he repeated it all day long until i realized he was talking to me...That thanksgiving week end;
"
"Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool"

Yes i looked around....:happydance I said why are you saying that to me, that's Jesus'
but I remember what Jesus said of the Holy Spirit that he would take of mines and show that unto you...

so I needed a catcher then :horn:happydance

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

When I say this I mean it with the most love and respect I could give. You confuse me. It can't be that hard for me to "get." I don't consider myself to know it all (because nobody does) but I am filled, saved, been in church ALL my life, a student of Theology, and a preacher of the gospel...yet I still have NO CLUE of what you are talking about IN RELATION to the post.

Can someone help me. Seriously...not even trying to be funny or anything. Sincerely puzzled at what in the world you are talking about.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

:laffatu

I told you in the beginning that it isn't even preached. but by few..

I try again..

God said in Jeremiah 31:31-34, That the new covenant he would make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah that he would write his laws in our hearts , and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, know the Lord: for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them.

Now what I was describing before was the writing of those laws in me, by the Holy Spirit...

I would also say that is would be fairly common among many Christians that they might only have one or two maybe not more than 10 quickened words in a life time..

He is the first I ever received and you should be able to understand my enthusiam for the Word of God ...John 15:7.. if you abide in me and my words abide in you you shall ask what you will and it shall be done unto you..That was in 1977 and I had forgotten it. the next year I was filled with the Holy Ghost..so the second Rhema in 91 was Psalm 119:49 :heeheehee

It said, "remember the word unto they servant upon which thou has caused him to hope.."
Now that was the Holy Ghost trying to get me to remember John 15:7 from 14 years earlier..14 years ..
Now all the words or lines or stripes from God to me came from his mouth as it is written , "receive I pray thee , the law from his mouth and lay up his words in thine heart. Job 22 ;22 ....

yes he used that one to describe my responsibility to what he was doing..

These are what Jesus calls pearls..:heeheehee

actually I've never heard of anyone preaching on this..other than an absolute few and those teachers never let on that God would give so many rhemas

There is a Rhema Bible College in Okla.

A rhema is a quickened word...living word..

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

mmmkay...and I wont assume that you are laughing at my question even though the purple smileys you used are one smiley pointing at the other laughing.

Have a good day.

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

And you too...I love that smiley

guess you can say I'm a smiley freak :heeheehee

Re: We are not baptized with the holy ghost and fi
 

[QUOTE=riverslivnwtr;1079714]don't run off little doggie...read Acts chapter two..When the Holy Ghost came cloven tongues of fire sat upon the heads of each of them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in unknown tongues...

cloven tongues as of fire...


:doggyrun