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-   -   Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=36232)

Charnock 07-26-2011 01:59 PM
Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
I love foreign missionaries. I love pastors. I love my co-laborers in the harvest. But I am sick up to my eyeballs of the guilt trips laid on American ministers and churches by folks who are fully funded to fulfill their calling. I want to be clear that most missionaries I know are hard working folks who give it everything they've got but, lately, I've come across a few who have a sense of entitlement and pride.

I become very annoyed by people who assume that foreign missionaries are the only people in the world who sacrifice and suffer hardship. In reality, many foreign missionaries live extremely well. They get "free" cars, appliances and many other perks. In the UPC, foreign missionaries are fully funded.

Here's the deal. It's one thing to know about, and be moved by, an incredible poverty among the people you're laboring to reach, another thing entirely to become personally impoverished specifically because you reach for that field.

When you have no power, no water, and few groceries you will have the right to lecture me about American laziness and apathy. As a former church planter, I have gone without those things so that the "work of God" could prosper, and so that others would not suffer. I do not say this to brag, or out of some plea for sympathy. I post it to make a point. There are men and women all around you that are waking to the fact that this continent is adrift. They are sacrificing everything to reach it, and giving to foreign missions as well. Reality is, you would have to change the way you operate if not for those wealthy, apathetic, Americans who are working their tails off to build God's kingdom here and there.

Don't insult their gifts and sacrifice by talking about the wealth and apathy of the American church.

Charnock 07-26-2011 02:03 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Home Missionaries give to foreign missionaries. They feel it's an obligation.

Do foreign missionaries give anything to home missionaries?

Charnock 07-26-2011 02:04 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
At what point should a work become nationalized? Why do we need career missionaries?

To me, it points back to colonialism.

Shouldn't we build a work and then leave?

Praxeas 07-26-2011 02:05 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
I haven't seen any guilt trips. I haven't seen romanticized versions of Missionary work.

Charnock 07-26-2011 02:08 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
AFF will allow personal attacks on American pastors at will.

But don't even consider talking about the finances and attitudes of foreign missionaries.

Praxeas 07-26-2011 02:10 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083870)
At what point should a work become nationalized? Why do we need career missionaries?

To me, it points back to colonialism.

Shouldn't we build a work and then leave?
In many areas we (meaning the UPC) are able to do just that. It's done with a lot of prior financial support as well as other kinds of support to build the infrastructure.

But the problem is in many areas of the third world nation it's hard or impossible to do just that in a short period of time.

And in Sis Alvears case, she is not connected to an organization. She get's little financial help, let alone other helps, so that process is going to be painfully slow

But even then, what should a person do who has a calling to a third world nation? Not go because we should just leave?

Why not pull out of many US cities and allow the people who live there take over?

Praxeas 07-26-2011 02:12 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083874)
AFF will allow personal attacks on American pastors at will.

But don't even consider talking about the finances and attitudes of foreign missionaries.
What personal attack?

Sister Alvear is a board member, and we allowed you and OP to do your little song and dance on her too! What a lame argument.

Did an Admin tell you that you can't? I don't see any Admin telling you you can't

mizpeh 07-26-2011 02:48 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083870)
At what point should a work become nationalized? Why do we need career missionaries?

To me, it points back to colonialism.

Shouldn't we build a work and then leave?
Yes, I wonder the same thing. The work the apostles did was that of missionaries. They built works and traveled about reinforcing those works and then committed them to God and his word.

Something else I wonder about is why we Americans send missionaries to countries that already have the gospel, like Wales, France, Germany, Ireland, Portugal, Mexico, etc? Why?

mizpeh 07-26-2011 02:53 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1083876)
In many areas we (meaning the UPC) are able to do just that. It's done with a lot of prior financial support as well as other kinds of support to build the infrastructure.

But the problem is in many areas of the third world nation it's hard or impossible to do just that in a short period of time.

And in Sis Alvears case, she is not connected to an organization. She get's little financial help, let alone other helps, so that process is going to be painfully slow

But even then, what should a person do who has a calling to a third world nation? Not go because we should just leave?

Why not pull out of many US cities and allow the people who live there take over?
How long do foreign countries need missionaries to come and start works in their countries? When should the nationals take over the work themselves and support it themselves?

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence.

onefaith2 07-26-2011 03:18 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Is this discussion under the same category as whether we should give more to feed hungry Americans instead of sending money overseas to starving Africans?

Praxeas 07-26-2011 03:18 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1083904)
How long do foreign countries need missionaries to come and start works in their countries? When should the nationals take over the work themselves and support it themselves?

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence.
Most countries are third world nations. Many don't allow national organizations but the do allow missionaries. Other places, such as Saudi Arabia, we will always have missionaries there incogneto until SA changes politically

It takes time, money and lots of effort to bring a group of people in a nation up to the point of being financially independent enough to build churches, train their own church builders.

And even then they often still don't have the means to evangelize their entire nation so we still have missionaries who feel called to go there just as we have men here in the states called to go into some city and start a church

Praxeas 07-26-2011 03:18 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1083904)
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence.
Read what I was responding to

onefaith2 07-26-2011 03:22 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
So is it a crime for a man or woman to be passionate about their area of call? I am thinking that Charnock is offended because he viewed Missionaries getting more sympathy than American co-workers who start works. However Sister Alvear is passionate about her area and rightly so! Neither can know the sacrifices of the other. I think its a crime to judge each other on "who sacrifices most!" This is where Pentecostalism/Christianity can fall short in my opinion. We compare ourselves to ourselves way too much. We need more balance.

I'm be afraid if someone was not passionate about their area of call. The thing is, we can't let our area of call override someone else's area of call.

Why should we put each other down on these matters?

Praxeas 07-26-2011 03:26 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Missionaries in general get a little bit more sympathy perhaps because they have been uprooted from family and friends, left their homes and their homelad to live in a foreign nation with strange customs, rules and dangers. Their children often have no friends to talk with for a great deal of time,

onefaith2 07-26-2011 03:33 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1083923)
Missionaries in general get a little bit more sympathy perhaps because they have been uprooted from family and friends, left their homes and their homelad to live in a foreign nation with strange customs, rules and dangers. Their children often have no friends to talk with for a great deal of time,
Yes and I'm there are home missionaries who move to California from the east coast away from family or friends. I know some actually. I guess its a matter of being 3 K miles away or 7K miles away. Sacrifices are abound for sure in the missionary field, at home or abroad.

I always wondered why there wasn't a system like foreign missions for Home missions in the UPC. However recent developments are showing some signs of it developing. The UPC (not sure about other orgs) tend to use the mother-daughter work concept. I wonder what would happen if churches used the same setup for missionaries? I suppose churches would not be able to support as many as they do.

Charnock 07-26-2011 03:41 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2 (Post 1083918)
So is it a crime for a man or woman to be passionate about their area of call? I am thinking that Charnock is offended because he viewed Missionaries getting more sympathy than American co-workers who start works. However Sister Alvear is passionate about her area and rightly so! Neither can know the sacrifices of the other. I think its a crime to judge each other on "who sacrifices most!" This is where Pentecostalism/Christianity can fall short in my opinion. We compare ourselves to ourselves way too much. We need more balance.

I'm be afraid if someone was not passionate about their area of call. The thing is, we can't let our area of call override someone else's area of call.

Why should we put each other down on these matters?
Not at all.

onefaith2 07-26-2011 03:43 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083930)
Not at all.
Thats what I gather. You are arguing that American pastors suffer but they don't get the sympathy missionaries do, are you not?.

riverslivnwtr 07-26-2011 03:44 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Today we can evangelize the world from here...

Right now I regularly ask that the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into the harvest..and there is a specific area that I have been assigned by the Holy Spirit and, I always pray that every area of the world will have an intercessor praying for the harvest to come in....

I watch over my area like it's a garden ....
and I feel no guilt about anything ...

Charnock 07-26-2011 03:52 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2 (Post 1083931)
Thats what I gather. You are arguing that American pastors suffer but they don't get the sympathy missionaries do, are you not?.
Partly.

The bigger issue is that some foreign missionaries snap at, and bite, the very hands that feed their ministry. There is sometimes a feeling that they "deserve" things.

Don't beg for money and then snipe at the folks who are compassionate enough to give it.

onefaith2 07-26-2011 03:55 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083939)
Partly.

The bigger issue is that some foreign missionaries snap at, and bite, the very hands that feed their ministry. There is sometimes a feeling that they "deserve" things.

Don't beg for money and then snipe at the folks who are compassionate enough to give it.
Are these foreign missionaries on here you speak of? I've never had one do this. They usually say pray and do whatever you feel you need to do. The only thing I have been pointedly asked to do is pray for them.

tstew 07-26-2011 04:29 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083862)
I love foreign missionaries. I love pastors. I love my co-laborers in the harvest. But I am sick up to my eyeballs of the guilt trips laid on American ministers and churches by folks who are fully funded to fulfill their calling. I want to be clear that most missionaries I know are hard working folks who give it everything they've got but, lately, I've come across a few who have a sense of entitlement and pride.

I become very annoyed by people who assume that foreign missionaries are the only people in the world who sacrifice and suffer hardship. In reality, many foreign missionaries live extremely well. They get "free" cars, appliances and many other perks. In the UPC, foreign missionaries are fully funded.

Here's the deal. It's one thing to know about, and be moved by, an incredible poverty among the people you're laboring to reach, another thing entirely to become personally impoverished specifically because you reach for that field.

When you have no power, no water, and few groceries you will have the right to lecture me about American laziness and apathy. As a former church planter, I have gone without those things so that the "work of God" could prosper, and so that others would not suffer. I do not say this to brag, or out of some plea for sympathy. I post it to make a point. There are men and women all around you that are waking to the fact that this continent is adrift. They are sacrificing everything to reach it, and giving to foreign missions as well. Reality is, you would have to change the way you operate if not for those wealthy, apathetic, Americans who are working their tails off to build God's kingdom here and there.

Don't insult their gifts and sacrifice by talking about the wealth and apathy of the American church.
If what I bolded is true, why don't you just focus on the majority of missionaries and not the few that you say exist? I would imagine that a few domestic pastors also have a sense of entitlement and pride. Should you choose to focus on what you recognize as a vast minority, it will taint your perspective, voice, and the level respect displayed for the vast majority.

PS: Just for the record, I would not wish deputation these days on my worst enemy.

Praxeas 07-26-2011 04:37 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2 (Post 1083928)
Yes and I'm there are home missionaries who move to California from the east coast away from family or friends. I know some actually. I guess its a matter of being 3 K miles away or 7K miles away. Sacrifices are abound for sure in the missionary field, at home or abroad.

I always wondered why there wasn't a system like foreign missions for Home missions in the UPC. However recent developments are showing some signs of it developing. The UPC (not sure about other orgs) tend to use the mother-daughter work concept. I wonder what would happen if churches used the same setup for missionaries? I suppose churches would not be able to support as many as they do.
It's not exactly the same thing. A man who is UPC and moves to Ca to start a church will have other brothers there to lean on, moves to an area that is still American in culture

BTW there is a system for home missions

onefaith2 07-26-2011 04:44 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1083965)
It's not exactly the same thing. A man who is UPC and moves to Ca to start a church will have other brothers there to lean on, moves to an area that is still American in culture

BTW there is a system for home missions
Are you saying that the culture is the same in every area of America? What is American culture anyway? America is a union of many different cultures. And missionaries go and usually find a group of believers they can lean on. For instance there are other missionaries there. I know of few countries that only have one set and MK's as I understand it look to ther MK's for fellowship, as they don't have an American church youth group. Missionaries of different denominations usually speak to each other more there also.

I mentioned there was a system for home missions developing and it is ever changing (however many choose the daughter work concept). Daughter missionaries might work also. However it is not as developed as foreign missions, would you not agree?

seguidordejesus 07-26-2011 05:13 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Interesting questions here.

CC1 07-26-2011 05:57 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 1083862)
I love foreign missionaries. I love pastors. I love my co-laborers in the harvest.
Yup, you are just a bundle of love.:blah

BeenThinkin 07-26-2011 06:07 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1083959)
If what I bolded is true, why don't you just focus on the majority of missionaries and not the few that you say exist? I would imagine that a few domestic pastors also have a sense of entitlement and pride. Should you choose to focus on what you recognize as a vast minority, it will taint your perspective, voice, and the level respect displayed for the vast majority.

PS: Just for the record, I would not wish deputation these days on my worst enemy.

Don't you think it would be okay to wish it on Charnock? Just once? Just for a little while? :foottap

Been Thinkin

Chateau d'If 07-26-2011 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Don't you think it would be okay to wish it on Charnock? Just once? Just for a little while? :foottap

Been Thinkin
It would be great. Housing, food and bills paid for preaching.

tstew 07-26-2011 07:50 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chateau d'If (Post 1084058)
It would be great. Housing, food and bills paid for preaching.
In reference to the title of this thread, I assure you that your characterization here is much more romanticized than Foreign Missions. :)

coadie 07-26-2011 08:00 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Our home missionaries start small churches. They can work a trade, on the case of a nearby chruch, he is a school principal. In other countries, part of your condition of a visa is it is not to work. When my community sends executives to europe, the spouses can't get permission for jobs.
I came from a comunity that cranked out a lot of missionaries. For some they just weren't preacher material but wanted to get a pilot's liscense and work in Alaska. I don't worry about it. My aunts and Uncles sent my Uncle to africa. We and no churches funded him, We shipped a new farm tractor, vehicles, bought land, opened a school and he even recruited a cook and other workers from our community that we didn't pay for. They did great till the King saw the great success and took everything. They won a lot of souls and converted many Muslims. He taught a lot of missionaries that were locals that had to leave Africa after becoming infidels.

I have relatives buried there. My uncle can never go back and even visit the graves.

Charnock 07-26-2011 08:01 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1084074)
In reference to the title of this thread, I assure you that your characterization here is much more romanticized than Foreign Missions. :)
Touche.

mizpeh 07-26-2011 08:09 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1083959)
If what I bolded is true, why don't you just focus on the majority of missionaries and not the few that you say exist? I would imagine that a few domestic pastors also have a sense of entitlement and pride. Should you choose to focus on what you recognize as a vast minority, it will taint your perspective, voice, and the level respect displayed for the vast majority.

PS: Just for the record, I would not wish deputation these days on my worst enemy.
Good advice.

What is so bad about deputation today compared to the past?

johnny44 07-26-2011 08:38 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1083959)

PS: Just for the record, I would not wish deputation these days on my worst enemy.
Don't forget that once you go outside of the good old USA the bill of rights does not follow .SCARY.

tstew 07-26-2011 10:24 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1084083)
Good advice.

What is so bad about deputation today compared to the past?
In my opinion, it has never been the glamorous bed of roses that some apparently imagine that it is. There are just some things that make it more complicated and challenging these days.

RandyWayne 07-26-2011 10:25 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1084124)
In my opinion, it has never been the glamorous bed of roses that some apparently imagine that it is. There are just some things that make it more complicated and challenging these days.
Unless your a missionary to Hawaii. :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CcNLItf_YT...loha-hawai.jpg

tstew 07-26-2011 11:00 PM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 1084126)
Unless your a missionary to Hawaii. :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CcNLItf_YT...loha-hawai.jpg
LOL. That would only make deputation harder. "I can't wait to get back".

John Atkinson 07-27-2011 06:39 AM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
I appreciate the willingness of missionaries to go to these places. As an oil field brat I got the whole "third world armpit" ticket punched early in life, and there ain't a thing romantic about it. Such as it is I am one of those guys who will remain firmly within the borders of western civilization and will never, ever venture forth to places like the congo, brazil, indonisia, kentucky, alabama, etc.

So I am appreciative of people who do.

CC1 07-27-2011 06:48 AM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 1084126)
Unless your a missionary to Hawaii. :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CcNLItf_YT...loha-hawai.jpg
I must confess for years I fought the call to evangelize the beaches of Hawaii. There was a strong pull. However based on the grocery prices I saw while there on vacation in 2008 I would think a lot of deputation would be needed!

RandyWayne 07-27-2011 07:03 AM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1084156)
I must confess for years I fought the call to evangelize the beaches of Hawaii. There was a strong pull. However based on the grocery prices I saw while there on vacation in 2008 I would think a lot of deputation would be needed!
I have heard from many people that this is not a cheap place to live, or eat.

CC1 07-27-2011 08:10 AM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 1084157)
I have heard from many people that this is not a cheap place to live, or eat.
Pineapples were cheap ($0.99 each) but right next to the $6.00 lb grapes! A box of instant oatmeal was six bucks. When I saw that I told my wife we would just eat breakfast at a restaurant (our hotel room had a full kitchen so we had thought we might eat breakfast there).

Dagwood 07-27-2011 08:45 AM
Re: Why do We Romanticize Foreign Missions?
 
I, myself, have yet to brush shoulders with a missionary who displayed an attitude of entitlement or pride.

I support a missionary's desire, whether here domestically or in a foreign country. Missionary work is exactly that, missionary work. And I would certainly hope to sense a spirit of humility and longsuffering, to name a few, coming from the missionary(ies), as I'm sure it rocks their world when they leave home and travel to a foreign country to live and spread God's word and work...


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