Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Wine toast at a wedding.

A dance for the Bride and Groom.

Champagne on your anniversary.

Makeup to cover zits and imperfections.

Water skiing in a swimsuit.

Occasionally watching a movie (in your living room or theatre).

I have no issues with these, nor see any scriptural support for opposing them.

What say you? Based on this, can I still be considered "Holiness"? Or am I in the Devil's lair?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Or maybe you're lookin to rial up one of those hard nose conservatives then talk about how legalistic and uneducated he is? Maybe you'd like to show everyone how those Ultra Cons are mean and hateful and focus so much on the outside that they are a cesspool of bitterness on the inside? Maybe you're looking for oppurtunity to accuse the brethren? If that's the case (and i sincerely hope it isn't) then the answer is no, that isn't holiness of heart.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

no problem with me.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

believe what you want, I won't be going to your church.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Well no, I am not. I don't think my record here on AFF would bear that out either. The question is serious, though I am having a bit of fun asking it.

Admittedly, the "Devil's Lair" thing is a bit TIC.

My entire Mennonite family, and my wife and her family are more conservative than I, yet I don't think any of them are bitter, or necessarily legalistic etc.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Good teaching on I Cor. 11 (uncut).

Absolute necessity of Acts 2:38 salvation.

Abstaining from movies, television, and any other ungodly media.

Restricted use of internet and use of good filters.

Abstaining from jewelry (including wedding bands).

Believing in modesty of dress (following guidelines set by my pastor).

Praying in earnest for a genuine move of God in the Jesus name movement, including those that i agree with and those that i don't (reguardless of organization). Taking a stand for holiness and separation from the world while acknowledging that everyone who has been baptized in THE name and filled with THE Spirit is my brother/sister.

I don't care what you call me, as long as HE calls me faithful.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Ya, I am actually completely with Hoovie but believe it is a set-up question. But didn't Jesus make more then one set-up question? Anyways, I understand what he is trying to say. If we broke it down to a specific point in the first post, what would ultra-cons say to something like wine being served at a members wedding reception?

Or a dance between the bride and groom? After all, isn't it supposed to be THEIR wedding?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

You must not know Hoovie very well.:)

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

ok good! :thumbsup

And an honest answer...i don't agree with you that the majority of these things are ok. Maybe with the exception of a dance between the bride and groom. But i do not know the condition of your heart and wouldn't try to say.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Here is the straight scoop. There was a time (soon after I became Pentecostal) when I was looking for a church as you describe... with ONE BIG exception! I have never believed only Oneness Pentecostals were my brothers and sisters.

(actually possibly two, because I also believe a veil is in question in Cor 11)

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I do not look down on trinitarians. I have seen a great hunger for God in many trinitarian Pentecostal and "Full Gospel" campmeetings. It agitates me when our ppl refer to all those who do not believe like we do as "those charismatics". I spent quite a bit of time in trinitarian churches and i appreciate their love for God. But i do not believe they are saved or my brethren. Not because I am better or wiser or more spiritual but because i believe in the neccessity of this experience, this message, and His name.

And as to the second scoop, when Paul said that her hair is given her for a covering, that pretty much rules out the veil IMO. Not trying to start a debate on I Cor. 11.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Good teaching on I Cor. 11 (uncut).
FALSE DOCTRINE

Absolute necessity of Acts 2:38 salvation.
YEP

Abstaining from movies, television, and any other ungodly media.
BASED ON CONTENT


Restricted use of internet and use of good filters.
I HAVE THE HOLY GHOST.

Abstaining from jewelry (including wedding bands).
MODERATION

Believing in modesty of dress (following guidelines set by my pastor).
I DON'T NEED SOMEONE TO DRESS ME. I'M
NOT A CHILD.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I do too, and i want to keep it. So knowing that my flesh has the ability to be an absolute monster (i'm sure your's carries the same ability) i need to set a standard for myself in the time of weakness.



Completely out of context.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

What specifically is out of context?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

About not having to have someone to dress you. My pastor sets some guidelines for what is modest. He doesn't tell me or anyone else what to wear.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

At what point do you consider God to have "filled those that hunger and thirst for righteousness"(like the thousands you spoke of), and at what point of this "honoring" their hungrr do they become saved and become your brother?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I wouldn't call you anything except my friend. ;)

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I would have a serious problem with wearing make up.


I'm just saying....





:)

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I agree with you in this.

We are both natural and spiritual and there are things that we, as individuals, must do to encourage our abundant life as a Christian.

For example, the former bar fly who is now living as a son or daughter of God should be careful to avoid the bars-- for more than a little while.

This isn't legalism, this is wisdom.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

When they are baptized in Jesus name.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I guess you mean for guys? Hoovie mentioned covering zits, specifically. Do you think guys should not do that?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

so if your pastor only sets a guideline for you to follow to be modest, if you do not follow his guideline and follow one that you believe is given to you by God will you be allowed to continue in any leadership capacity or would you be considered rebellious and unsaved??

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

but the bar fly who should stay away from bars does not mean that everyone should abstain from alcohol. it means that person had a problem and should stay away from bars, alcohol, and whatever else it was that caused them problems. BUT not everyone is the same and should be allowed to make those choices for themselves based on their relationship with God.

No I do not feel a Christian should spend tons of time in bars but I have gone into one or two in my time and only ate. Some of them have really good cooks and serve some really great grub.
neither do I believe it would have been wrong of me if I had drank an alcoholic beverage with my meal either.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

So when they are 100% hungry for God, and God "fills they that hunger" per His promise, yet they never hear or comprehend your understanding of Jesus name baptism (being of necessity to be spoken by the baptized at baptism), then Gods promise is NOT fullflled with them(no matter what He said), and they are not your brother....So how and who is keeping God from fulfilling His promise to these that are 100% hungry for God and yet are never baptized according to your understanding of Jesus name baptism(expressed by the baptized)?

Or is that what u mean by Jesus name baptism?

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

How about diving in a wet suit? Or does the all-important jean skirt still need to be worn (by women)?

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ScubaDiver.jpg

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

You're as lost as................ well you know. And you're going to hell.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................ there I said it.









Whew

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I'd like to thank you, but no - that wouldn't be right either!

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

:tic

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

The Holy Ghost leads into all truth. God responds to the hungry heart by filling them with His Spirit and leading them into truth. The problem often is that God may fill a hungry soul with the Holy Ghost and begin to lead them into truth yet they resist the drawing and leading of the Spirit. It is not that God does not fulfill his promise but that the individual values tradition above truth. I have seen numerous ppl receive the Holy Ghost in a trinitarian church and then God begins to reveal the oneness of the Godhead and baptism in Jesus name to them. I have seen several who resisted the drawing and leading of the Spirit and the revelation God is giving them and when they do this something happens to their spirit. Their hunger and desire for more of God subsides. God is faithful to lead us if we are faithful to be led.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

In all fairness, though I am Oneness, I have known people who recieved the Spirit (even with tongues) and feel they were led to a Trinitarian understanding of God.

The body is not defined by the theological tenants of Oneness Pentecostalism. Like all we have evolving hermeneutics of the sacred text.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Oh, Hoovie...gotta love your post. I'm with you on it 110%.

As for kclee4jc, it appears to me your whole walk with God is based on "Many are called, but few are chosen" from a UPCI-only standpoint, doctrine, standards, and the whole kit and kaboodle. Where's the humbleness in your walk? I'm asking that because you tout your horn like many of those who are spiritually fat or arrogant.

Are you one of those who wears a starched 3-piece suit because your pastor says so? Not go to the movies, because your pastor says not to do so? Not listen to non-Christian music, because your pastor says not to do so? Not go to extra-curricular school functions, because your pastor says not to do so? What else? So many "no, can'ts, don't do's, etc." And don't tell me the whole spill of "Well, it's not that I don't/can't'won't, it's because I get to go to church, or I get to live for God." I've heard that; you're not the only one who "gets to do" those things.

Sure, I respect my pastor. But, I also know he's wise enough to know what's Biblical vs extra-Biblical. Are you one of those white-collar, whites-only bretheren whose church only caters to the religious elite and would exclude a homeless person, smelly person, poor person, black, hispanic, or asian person...or, better yet, a worldly person? After all, we all come from the world...we were all born into sin, regardless of where we're from, what we look like/don't look like, smell like, etc. So, I'd say it's high time you put away the talley marking board for "who has and doesn't have" compared to you, my friend, and start listening to what God has to say far above and beyond what a man might tell you...

I'm not trying to disrespect you or belittle your convictions, but what I see in the words you've typed here is a common sight, not just on here but in church too...

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Yeah, we know. As lost as a boy and a girl kissing, who don't happen to be saved.

:heeheehee

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

mmm...i think you've read me wrong. Quite a bit actually..

I'm not UPC by the way

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Okay, I stand corrected. My apologies. And, while it may appear I was on a vocal rant, I really wasn't. But, thoughts were coming rather quickly. So, again, my apologies if I offended you.

I have friends who fall in line with your thinking. I don't have a problem with them or their thoughts, and it certainly doesn't catch my spirit negatively, perhaps because they don't speak of their convictions. They live them. And that's what matters. I live what I've been convicted of, and so do they. At the end of the day, was God pleased with what you, they, or I did, said, or how we all lived?

Now, let's carry on...

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Yes, you would be rebellious at that point, if you choose to continue to serve under that Pastor.

If one really believed that they received a "direction" under the influence of the Holy Spirit and that "direction" is not in unity with your fellowship, then the honorable thing to do would be to find the fellowship that walks in the light of the "direction" God has given you and join them, if you intend to live as you personally feel lead by God and it's different from a major tenet and clear teaching of your current Pastor.

However, you know of my recent actions, so this is where I am coming from.



Regardless, God is not the author of confusion.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

It really depends on what one means when he "sets some guidelines". I would not give weighty consideration to the personal preferences of others in the body. Not that you go out of the way to offend, just know that personal preferences are very diverse, and guidelines aren't meant to be mandatory rules to be in the body of Christ.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

Do you work at a paint factory? Or maybe you are on crack? Or Maybe...or maybe...or maybe You you you. Gee I can make up all kinds of wicked stuff you might be into..how pathetic

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

I think i should have either avoided this thread altogether or Worded my first post a bit more carefully

I know my original post is not really Hoovie's character (although it may be of many on this forum). I apologize to all i may have offended.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

No offense taken.

Just to point out, I go to a culturally diverse church with a range of poverty level saints to 'mid class' saints. We seek out the hurting and the broken and that is usually who God gives us. I have seen God take someone who in your carnal mind you wouldnt even want to be around, and make them into a beautiful saint of God. We are a growing revival church that emphasises relationship with God, prayer, and fasting. We have our issues and have to fight through tremendous spiritual resistance, but God is good to our assembly and continues to add souls.

Re: Liberties or The Devil's Lair?
 

kc,


if an apostolic does not follow the holy ghost as he leads said apostolic out of legalism, does the apostolic share the same eternal fate as the trinitarian that refused to be re-baptized in the name after receiving the "revelation" to do so?