Messianic Question
 

What are the arguments against following the torah, not for salvation, but for the sake of being distinctive and learning more hebrew culture? I'm thinking apostolics follow holiness standards to be distinctive and separate, how about following the torah for the same purpose? Does anyone see anything wrong with that?

is seeking the "old paths" referring to 1950's culture or hebrew torah culture?

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DM, in following the Torah, we follow that which is fulfilled and abolished. The Law now stands to teach us about sin, and if you seek to keep part of the Law, then you must keep the whole. We have a higher and deeper law now, the law of Christ, which is infinitely higher than the Torah.

The Torah says not to commit adultery, but the law of Christ says that if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The Torah speaks to the physical, while the law of Christ speaks to the spiritual. And trying to keep the law of Moses as a means of separation almost always leads to becoming a Noahide in salvation as well.

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Law keeping in the early church was such a problem and temptation to fall under legalism that it is a very unwise thing, I think. A lot of them who keep such rites actually demand them, but seek to lure people into them in the way you describe. Judaizers were the greatest threat to the early church in areas of people falling away. Paul distinctly said he only did such things in order to win Jews. Not for cultural reasons at all.

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I think it is good to study things but it would be impossible to live under it today.

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It would be illegal and immoral to follow some of the Torah.

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Come on Timmy we know you follow the Torah....:heeheehee

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:spit

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we do have a new torah for the NT church, david bernard wrote a book called Practical Holiness,a second look.

this Book needs to be ripped up thrown into a trash can and set on fire..

Its the same type of implied standards that the pharasees did back in the day of Jesus,
God said i will put my Spirit in them and you will walk in my statutes and laws
exekiel 36:27

There is no hurt in looking at it from a hebrewish stand point, but one must realize the time it was given to them and why, how they applied it to themselves and the out come

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If you want to follow the Torah for the purpose of learning about it, go for it

WHat verse says to seek the old paths?

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jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein]. kjv

do you see anything wrong with a church keeping torah as their holiness message?

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Yes, I do. Holiness message is about what we require. We do not REQUIRE Torah keeping. Studying Torah to see Christ in it is one thing, but requiring to keep it is quite another altogether. That is classic legalism.

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untraditional, the law is not abolished, I agree that most has been fulfilled and that we now follow a higher spiritual law, but I think there is a lot to learn from the ot and i am talking about following it as part of the culture of the church and asking if it is an appropiate holiness message to follow the torah. i think torah keeping as holiness is more significant than make up, long sleeves and jewelery. I appreciate your comments. I'm still studying this issue as to how far is acceptable and still be new testament.

Mat 5:17¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

any comments on this passage?

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what if I believed that torah keeping defines holiness. how would you argue against that?

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Most true Christians who own a Bible are somewhat knowledgeble about the Torah. We read it about as much as we read the New Testament dont we? Im all for using Hebrew names for God and Christ after all they are the originals.

For instance:

God, we could call El, Eloah or Elohim.

We could stop using the indescript term LORD and use the true YHWH or the general term Adonai.

Along with using the Saviors name in our own tongue we can call him Yeshua.

From my experience the only other thing I know that the Roots movement is offering is a return to Torah observance which the Jerusalem Conference of Acts 15 decreed we Gentiles dont need to do.

Then at least some of them go way beyond THAT and teach simply the Jewish traditions of men. It seems like more of a distraction to me than a move forward.

Some Christians I know sold themselves under it and have drifted away from New Testament doctrine. There are others who went so far as to reject that Paul was an apostle and that Yeshua is the Messiah. Of course that is the extreme but it has happened.

As Christians we do have distinctive traditions. Baptism into the name of Yeshua for instance. Praying and singing in other tongues. Women wearing headcovering when they minister in the Assemblies. Obedience to the sermon on the mount.

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many people do, nazarenes, messianics and jews, what is so difficult?

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i don't disagree, but can you quote a scripture pleazzze?

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i think we have fresh new testament eyes. is the purpose of the holy spirit to actually obey the spirit of the law?

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We are not allowed to kill sinners would be one for instance. Another is how many of us could afford to go up to Jerusalem to keep feasts?

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what Law did Jesus command and what Does the Holy Spirit Guide us in.

Love,

If you want to keep the torah, one just cant make it binding or a salvational issue, or then one is at odds of falling out of grace.

the book of hebrews is all about this, Its like going back to meager principles that cant save your or change you.

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The New Testament teaches the holiness requirements. Paul repeatedly spoke of the rites and rituals unique to Torah Law and said they were all foreshadows alone. The moral issues are not rites and rituals. But the unique issues aside from morality such as holy days, and things that make them "Jewish" are never to be considered things that define holiness.

For instance, Paul stated in Gal 3 that Law was a schoolmaster to the Israelites whom they were no longer under since Christ came. Then in Chapter 4 he rebuked the Gentile Galatians in the church for coming under Jewish elementary school by keeping Judaic days and months and years. He said these were a bondage that the jews were no longer required to keep. Why would saved gentiles seek them? But the point is the Jews themselves graduated from these things and were not to deem them as required. Making it a holiness issue makes it a requirement.

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Also Galatians 3 says Mosaic Law (Old Testament Law) automatically puts one under a curse. Paul said that those who fail to keep the whole law without failing in one point are under a curse. And the reason he said those who abide by it are automatically cursed is because it is a given that one cannot obey all of it.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The blessing is from Abraham's promise, which came long before law, which we receive by being in Christ.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So it is being blessed versus being cursed.

When one makes Law A requirement for holiness, then Christ is no longer our holiness/sanctification.

1 Cor 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification (HOLINESS in Gr.), and redemption:

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Messianic Music is beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXYB9...x=2&playnext=1

Our God Is One

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Law is abolished, but it is not destroyed. Fulfilling the law makes the law something that EXPIRED. Jesus fulfilled the law. In other words, HE PERSONALLY WAS what the Law proposed, in human form.

Jesus said Law would not pass til heaven and earth would first pass. And He said the Law was until John. This means JOHN'S TIME DID WHAT HEAVEN AND EARTH'S PASSING COULD NOT DO... cause Law to end!

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Deuteronomy 21:18-20.

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

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Thanks for responding Blume, I agree with what you said here, I was just bouncing ideas. I still think using hebrew names, dedicating saturday to God and at least conmemorating feast days is part of the hebrew culture that a church should have along with study of the OT. would you agree with me on that much or are you against that also?

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Blume, I still need more understanding on sanctification. I heard Mike Bickle teach that justification is our legal standing before God and sanctification is imparted righteousness as we progress in our condition of life unto perfection and that imparted righteousness comes through obedience.(not an exact quote, I may be wrong but that is what I remember). any comments?

Re: Messianic Question
 

I still think there are aspects of the moral law spelled out in torah that are not mentioned in the NT that could apply to christians like the laws of incest for example. Do you think that applies to christians?

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Incest would come under the heading of "fornication".

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Nothing wrong using hebrew names, but if you discriminate against other non hebrew names your in violation and are judging

were not hebrews, the church is both jew and gentile. Not every gentile has roots in judaism and customs. Specific letter was sent out in acts 15.

so we can understand God from the Old testament and messianic prophecies from the old testament, But God is not a respector of persons, He has given both jew and Non jew oppertunity of salvation.

why would you want to celebrate the passover? when christ is your passover.

also sabbath is from friday evening to saturday evening
The sabbath is no longer a day, Christ is your sabbath,


Jesus said
Come unto me all ye who labour and are heavy laden and i will give you rest for your soul.

In hebrews its sabbatismos. a rest that you can only enter when you believe, and that is believing on the Lord Jesus

Those feast days and such was all a shadow of things to come.

If anyman give a day to the lord then he gives it to the lord comes from romans.

So while those things you want to do may help you in your growth, i dont consider them part of church growth.

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law is abolished but not destroyed is in my view a contradiction. Jesus clearly stated to teach the commandments and he said if you love me you will keep my commandments. we believe jesus and yahweh are one so we know which commandments he is referring to. I'm not a full blown messianic but I think there is a lot to learn from the torah and principles to obey.

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mtd, the ot spells out relationships between persons and their aunt, uncle, aunts husband, uncle's wife etc. how would we know these were incest without teaching the torah? fornication doesn't define the outlawed relationships.

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I'm not advocating the cessation of nt teaching. what you've just said can be taught side by side with a feast conmemoration. I don't see why we have to focus solely on nt.

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no Nt no salvation

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There is no contradiction. Something destroyed is something useless. Something fulfilled is abolished but not as though it were useless. But the commandments Jesus referred to are not the ten commandments, I believe. Jesus had many of his own which went beyond the limits of law. Do not even hate without a cause or be a murderer. We can learn for certain. but as far as unique Jewish and Mosaic rites go, we do not keep them.

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Yes, exactly.

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I am not against having a feast day or holy day so long as it is not considered REQUIRED by God. As soon as someone makes it a requirement, one has fallen from grace.

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As I said, sanctification is the same thing as holiness in the Greek in 1 Cor 1:30. And it says Jesus is our holiness. I do agree sanctification is a process, but in another sense it is standing as much as justification is.

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If Yeshua meant the commands of Moses law then we for sure are in sin. I think the great commission shows he had commands for the New Covenant Church.

28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:18-20

Whatever he wants from us can be found in New Covenant writings. What do you think Acts 15 was about? There are a lot of writings by the Apostles and not once did they command us to keep Sabbath.

But if one wants to submit himself to that its up to him. Just like Apostolics who submit to such things as no beards, no trimming hair for women, ect. If they want to embrace that they can but its certainly not making them a better Christian.

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Note I did not say we should not study the Torah and the Prophets . I have spent thousands of hours doing so. It is the foundation for understanding the New Covenant.

I am stunned that people do such thing as Christmas and Easter through my Torah studies. I agree with my Messianic brothers about that.

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Amen and amen. All good points.