Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I have met maybe two Trinnies in my life who really thought that God is 3 persons as in three separate individuals-- maybe a couple more if you want to count my elementary school friends.

The Bible says, "Great is the mystery of Godliness...."

The word "rapture" is a convention to describe a biblical truth.
The word, "Trinity" fits in the same category.


For most folks, the difference is semantics.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I have NO Trinity Brothers and Sisters in Christ. There are NO Trinitarians in Christ.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

The bolded is simply not true.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Tis true. Not one no not one.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

This is just one of the reasons why I felt it best to leave the Apostolic movement-- I will not disrespect Apostolics who believe this way, but I can't really fellowship with them knowing that I just don't agree with them on this and several other issues.

Where I see the Grace of God, they dismiss that Grace as the work of satan, with their logic leading them to a dangerously judgmental place.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Trinity people don't believe Jesus is the father therefore they believe in more then one god. that means they don't serve the same god as me so they are not my brother or sister in christ

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

John said 'they went out from us because they were not of us"

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I suspect Epley would not say this same thing in his church... He enjoys the liberties of a media sounding board.

Certainly, if someone said something like, "I have NO Trinity Brothers and Sisters in Christ. There are NO Trinitarians in Christ." in my church I would walk out.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

They don't believe in more than 1 god.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Look it up.... They believe they are one in "unity"

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

That scripture doesn't apply to me as I really did believe all Trinitarians were lost at one time-- but the scriptures don't make that case.


The scriptures make the case for Heaven to be filled with Trinitarian and Oneness believers in Christ.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

You are confused.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I attend church and fellowship with a lot of them.

You would be hard pressed to find someone who is a Trinitarian who believes in 3 gods.

The Trinity just isn't presented that way.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Nope.

I know in whom I believe.
I know who has changed my life.

His NAME is JESUS-- SAVIOR of the world, SAVIOR of my soul.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Your mistaken

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

New American Standard Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.



The very FOUNDATION of the Church of Jesus Christ is His Identity as the Son of the Living God, not the Father.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Thanks.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way.
(from your link)



Take out the word "persons" as used in this sentence and replace it with "manifestations" and the meaning of that sentence does not change.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Or insert "persona" instead of persons...

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

"The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal"
How can one god coexist and be coeternal?

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Talk about an instance of "lost in translation!"

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I present to you Exhibit A: Matthew 3:13 - 17 (KJV).

13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Let's not read too much into this... they are not saying coexistence with other "Gods".


You do believe Jesus was God? And at the same time His father in heaven (to whom he prayed was God, right?

Co-existence. Or what I prefer, "simultaneous modes of existence".

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Now if anyone is expecting three beings in heaven, we part ways on that.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

A better question would be how can you believe in the ONE GOD of the Bible without acknowledging the clear difference in roles of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?


One GOD, different roles.
One GOD, different manifestations.
One GOD, dfferent personae.



I didn't continue with, "One GOD, different persons" because Christians who believe in the Trinity do NOT believe GOD to be three persons like Reagan, Clinton and Obama.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Right. On that last note - this is exactly what many OP accuse.

The fact is, the teaching of "three beings" is anathema in most all Trinitarian circles.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Y'all pass the pipe and get high on STUPID? Today's trinitarians believe that they will see 2 persons, the Father and Jesus, and a dove perched on Jesus' shoulder. It is not semantics.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

The trinity doctrine is an invention of man wherein paganism was breached into true theology proper. Do they believe in three gods? They claim no, but when God is a mere nature shared by three persons, and those three persons are equal, then you have three gods, no matter how much you shake the tree otherwise. This is truth and pure common sense.

There is only one God, one person who is pure and holy, who is a Spirit, manifested in the flesh as the Lord Jesus Christ. There are none beside Him, before Him, or above Him. He is God and God alone.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I get trying to build a bridge of fellowship and understanding.
I get that we are not the judge of who goes to heaven.
But, we have a precious truth, the Oneness of God and baptism in the name of Jesus.
Shouldn't we be more interested in sharing what we know then in trying to rationalize away the differences?
I'm afraid we are in danger of not passing on the truths that we know to a future generation.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Look it up, there is a huge diversity of thought on the matter and many, many ways in which it has been articulated over the centuries - just like there is with us on Oneness. It's difficult to lump everyone together. You certainly can't lump everyone together very neatly.

For this reason alone, it is the height of hubris and folly to pretend to be able to judge the eternal destinies of millions (billions!) of souls that we have never known nor heard out on the matter.


"Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother." Romans 14:13

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

How can one God be simultaneously "above all" (Transcendent), "through all" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanence) and "in you all" (as Spirit indwelling human beings)? (Ephesians 4:6).

Transcendence and Immanence are contradictory conditions. Technically, God can't be both... and yet He is.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I've met people who tried to articulate it that way, though more "reverently;" however these folks tended to be only nominally "religious" and almost always confessed that they had never really tried to study the thing out, let alone think the matter through.

When it comes to speaking with "mature" Christians and even pastors and Bible teachers - you won't find anyone who will say "Beings" when it comes to God. They'd be lambasted by their fellow Trinitarians.

Remember the Nicene Creed? "One in Being with the Father..." (concerning Jesus Christ). One Being. See also the Greek word "homoousia."

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

The "mere nature" that they affirm as being shared by "Three Persons" is Almighty God, Bro.

I feel that Trinitarians have erred in continuing to use the word "Person" long after its Latin meaning had been changed through time.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

:bump

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Pel - I need to respectfully ask you something, because I want to understand.

Would you say that there is no distinction between standard Oneness doctrine on the Godhead, and standard Trinitarian doctrine on the Godhead?

I don't think Trinitarians view it that way

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/optrin.html



HERESY?

We have seen that the Oneness doctrine of God is not faithful to the Biblical revelation of the Father and Son as two persons, and that the Oneness rejection of the Trinity is in error. The question now must be asked how serious an error this is, since theological errors vary in their harmfulness.

Evangelicals commonly suppose that a professed Christian movement may be judged orthodox or heretical simply on the basis of whether or not it affirms the full deity and humanity of Christ. Consequently, some Christians have concluded that the Oneness doctrine, despite its denial of the Trinity, is essentially Christian.

This is far too simplistic, however. While it is true that adherence to the two natures of Christ is critical to orthodoxy, and while most pseudo-Christian sects do deny that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, simply affirming the two natures is not enough. Indeed, it is possible to call Jesus "God" and still have "another Jesus" (2 Corinthians 11:4), if in calling Him "God" one means something significantly different from what the Bible means.

Such is the case with the Oneness understanding of the deity of Christ. When Oneness believers say that Jesus is God, what they mean is that He is the Father. That is not what the Bible means, as we have seen. Rather, when the Bible says that Jesus is "God," it means that He exists eternally as a divine person in relationship with the Father; or, to use the Church's theological shorthand, it means that He is the second person of the triune God.

The apostle John warns us, "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23). Oneness Pentecostals will not admit to denying the Son, of course; but that should come as no surprise. It is doubtful that any heretic, including those about whom John specifically warned, has ever admitted to denying the Son. Instead, heretics of all kinds have simply redefined the meaning of the term "Son" (and along with it the meaning of "Father"). Thus the Jehovah's Witnesses define "Son" as "direct creation," while the Mormons claim that Jesus is the "Son" of God by virtue of having been begotten through physical union between God and Mary. The Oneness redefinition of "Son" as the human nature of Jesus (and "Father" as His divine nature) may be less offensive than the Mormon version, and less obvious than that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is a redefinition nonetheless. The fact is that the Son and the Father are two persons, co-existing eternally in relationship with one another. To deny this fact is to deny the biblical Son, and thus to have a false view of Jesus.

It turns out, then, that one's view of Christ cannot be separated from one's view of the Trinity. Deny the Trinity, and you will lose the Biblical Christ; affirm the Christ of Scripture, the Christ who was sent by the Father and who sent the Holy Spirit, and you will find that your God is the Trinity. It is, in fact, the doctrine of the Trinity that is the distinctive feature of the Christian revelation of the nature of the true God. As Calvin expressed it: "For He so proclaims Himself the sole God as to offer Himself to be contemplated clearly in three persons. Unless we grasp these, only the bare and empty name of God flits about in our brains, to the exclusion of the true God." (38) Only the Christian God is triune, and consequently, to deny the Trinity is to say that, historically, Judaism and Islam have been right about the being of God, while Christianity has been wrong. Oneness writers have said as much. (39) Therefore, while there may be individual Oneness believers who are saved [Editor's Note: If, like the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, a Oneness believer does not have faith in the Biblical Jesus, then how can it be considered possible that such a person is saved?], the Christian community has no choice but to regard the Oneness movement as a whole as having departed from the Christian faith.

We must conclude, then, that the Oneness teaching is a heresy, that it denies a fundamental, basic belief of biblical Christianity, and that those churches and denominations which teach this heresy are actually pseudo-Christian sects. In popular Evangelical terminology, such a heretical sect is known as a "cult," a term which simply means that the group's beliefs are in some important respect non-Christian.

In this sense, we regretfully conclude that the Oneness churches are indeed cults, and we urge Christians to reach out to Oneness believers in love and share with them the triune God revealed in the Scriptures.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Trinitarianism is heresy. They dont confess the true doctrine of Christ. Isaiah taught that the Messiah would be BOTH the Father and the Son.

9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Christ is not JUST the Son. He is also the Eternal Father.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

It's possible for one's theology to be imperfect and yet they be saved. I knew an ol' Baptist woman who was in her eighties. She would sit on her porch and rock back and forth. A very modest woman. She also believed in the "gifts". I remember my mother talking to her about "Oneness" and her churches "Trinitarian doctrine". This ol' woman simply said, "I don't know all your big words hon... I don't understand every mystery. But I know Jesus."

I believe that woman may have been saved. Ultimately only God can judge the heart of a person and the relationship they have developed with Him.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

Let me guess... you sing hymns written by Trinitarians.
Read a Bible translated and propogated throughout the entire world by Trinitarians.
Your church no doubt has a congregational structure that was formed by Trinitarians.
Your pastor counsels which was an innovation started by Calvin.
Your church has a pulpit, something incorporated to be used by Trinitarians.
You have "Sunday School", a service originally designed by Trinitarians to assist with teaching children who worked in the sweat shops how to read using the Bible.
Your holiness standards were originally codified by the original holiness Weslyans, Nazarenes, and Methodists.
The Pentecostal Pioneers in the Apostolic Movement all came from Trinitarian churches who rejected them... while THEY still loved their Trinitarian brothers and sisters, praying that they might receive more truth.

Frankly... without Trinitarians and their devotion to God... we'd not even have a Bible today.

My point is this... IF you are Apostolic... and you believe the Apostolic doctrine is a perfected doctrine... why not believe that APOSTOLICS and Apostolic Doctrine is part of the great endtime REVIVAL God has sent to the global Christian church??? Instead of painting yourself as being of another religion and condemning Trinitarians... why not bill the Apostolic movement as the very REVIVAL the Reformers, and preachers of the Great Awakening longed for??? Why not see ourselves as the culmination of God's refining fire, purifying His church to draw us closer as the coming of Christ draws even nearer? For example, after the great Apostasy and decent into Catholicism we see several revivals that brought out several phases of church development. In each revival an essential doctrine came into focus...

• Lutheran Church - AD 1517: Saw - Justification by faith...
  
• Presbyterian Church - Ad 1536: Saw - Communion as a Memorial...
  
• Congregational Church - AD 1580: Saw - Separation of Church and State...
  
• Baptist Church - AD 1609: Saw - Water Baptism by Immersion...
  
• Methodist Church - AD 1739: Saw - Personal Holiness...
  
• Christian Church - AD 1820: Saw - Baptism for Remission of Sins...
  
• Trinitarian Pentecostalism - AD 1900: Saw - Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Evidence: Speaking with Tongues as in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost...
  
• AD 1914 Invasion of Apostles Doctrine from 33 A.D.
  The revelation of God in Christ (ONENESS), and the truth of baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ by immersion for the remission of sins brought the fire of Apostolic Christianity into full focus again to the Church Father Christians and the Reformation Christians.

Why not see our movement as part of God's restoration of the Apostolic Church? The gates of Hell will not prevail...Christ will return to a bride that is reformed and without spot or wrinkle.

Why not believe that many before the Oneness movement knew the Lord, though seeing him through the stained glass tradition of the Trinity? Why not believe that these walked in all the light they knew and will no doubt receive their reward.

One of the reasons why I left the Apostolic church is because of it's insistance on condemning all comers and marginalizing itself. Truth wouldn't do that. I had always believed that the church needed Reform and God sent mighty Reformers...

Martin Luther
John Calvin
John Huss
John Knox
John Wesley
George Whitefield
Charles Parham
David Urshan

...and many others...

I used to leave Trinitarian friends speechless by expressing my belief that the Apostolic Movement as a WHOLE is the answered prayer of the very Reformers they admire and cherish. They understand REFORMATION movements (every Protestant church was part of one)... they don't understand a movement that repudiates anything the world has ever known about Christianity.

By divorcing ourselves from historical Christianity we've divorced ourselves from our historic foundation, making us a cult that believes it is the final arbiter of salvation and condemns all others, allowing no mercy or justice towards nearly 2000 years of devout Christians... many of which surrendered their lives to the flames because of their love for Christ... even if their understanding was imperfect.

But this is one of MANY reasons behind why I left the Apostolic movement.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

How can a finite man understand an infinite God? There are some things I don't claim to understand - some Scriptures even. But I just know the one who bled and died for me and I love Him! I'm passionate about Jesus.

I know where I draw the line personally with the whole godhead thing. But I don't think those ideas and conclusions will save me. The blood of Jesus saves me. I also think it saves those who don't see the godhead just like we do.

Re: Our Trinitarian Brothers and Sisters in Christ
 

I believe the Apostolic movement would be of greater enfluence globally among all Christians if Apostolics saw themselves as a Revival/Restoration movement... instead of seeing themselves as the only true religion condemning all others... including nearly 2000 years of Christians and the very men who gave their lives to translate and propogate the very Bible we use.