UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Very interesting.

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Basically, it boils down to this.

It's okay to kill someone. Just don't have a TV in your home.

Yep, we've officially gone off the deep end.

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You are not upc so what does it matter?

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I am not upci so I could really care less what they do.

They have so many wacky contradictions in their manual....

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I was going up for license soon. This is a deal breaker for me. I wasted hours reading the required revised history and fiction novels.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiit !

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Yes

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. It's one I haven't totally sorted out. It's easy to say: Don't kill other human beings in defense of a country, but I would quickly and easily do so in defense of my family. On a larger scale, there's not much difference between the two.

That said: RS made some excellent points about the lack of debate and insurrection over this Resolution. Very interesting.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

I am not that indecisive on the matter. People, Christian or otherwise, have the right to kill to protect their family or their country. On the other forum, on this subject, someone took the position that killing is killing yet she turned around and said "but I respect the military!". No, you cannot hold to the position that ANY killing is wrong and still respect the military (or cops or FBI or Homeland security, or border patrol, etc). It is like saying to them "Thank you for sinning, so I don't have to! I really appreciate it!".

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Clinging to their guns and their religion.

AND their Republican Jesus.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Just to throw into the mix here:

So are we saying that christian soldiers should kill other soldiers from other countries even though the enemy soldier might be a christian too?

If we have Christians in our military, there's no doubt that other countries also have Christians in their military. So what then happens? Christians end up killing other of God's children for the kingdoms of this world? hmmm

Honestly, I don't think this issue is as clear cut as some it. I think each man must be persuaded in his own mind...

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In the case of capital punishment (which seems to be mandated in Genesis 9:6), some human being has to actually flip the switch to the electric chair.

Is the flip switcher guy now guilty of murder? Or is he lawfully "bearing the sword" of the state as in Romans 13? The same logic can be applied to the military, police, FBI, etc.

However, this is still a sticky issue. For example, were the Nazi soldiers innocent when they obeyed orders to slaughter Jews in the Holocaust? This is where the "just war theory" comes into play.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Here is a interesting read.
http://www.hoshuha.com/articles/pacifism.html

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Soldier: "If I say to this man, go, he goes. If I say to this man, kill, he kills."
Jesus: "Whoa! I have not found such faith, even in the UPCI. Lolz."

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

The Second World War may very well have been the last "just war" that America has been involved.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Some of these posts are pretty interesting. Houston, I didn't realize I was a republican until you pointed it out! LOL

We each have our "calling". Actually, some believers make excellent (gasp)soldiers. (I'm thinking the one with the greatest faith Jesus ever saw, or um, Cornelius. They didn't become officers because they were pacifists but because they were warriors.
Apparently, God doesn't have a "one size fits all" approach to the military.

I remember having a similar conversation eons ago in bible school. Some classmates were creating scenarios talking about defending the home, our wives, etc. One fellow piped up and said that if he had "enough faith" nothing would happen. (I think Sudan has shown us the folly of this kind of position.) I didn't realize that a gun clinger is one that believes in defending his country! This pacifistic attitude is suicidal, whether it's towards an invading country or a intruding rapist.

I guess I'm like Popeye...IyamwutIyam, and if called to defend this country, I would serve. I've also got a hollow point for someone that breaks into my home to harm my family. It's all in degree.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Sure, Christ's kingdom is not "of this world", (even the fighter Peter got rebuked for wielding a sword in the garden), but there is a time and place for defense...

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Ya, and we have 20 gage shot gun slugs. :)

Of course we're expecting the distinct sound of the shotgun and the Sig 9 mm being cocked to have a pretty strong effect on anyone who makes the foolish decision to breaking into our house while we're there.

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I'll hide in the dark with a knife, and when they least expect it, slit their throat. If that doesn't work, then I'll go for their throat with my teeth and break their windpipe. After they've finally breathed their last breath, I'll slice off their head. Then dismember them and burn them in the backyard under the full moon. Then, go to church and praise God, Amen.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Naw, just a single gun shot. And then after 6 hours of paperwork and debriefing with the cops, THEN I'll go to church and thank God that He allowed my aim to be true.

Or, maybe to follow in the spirit of your example, I would just hide in the closest and break a beer bottle over their head when they passed, then drag them down to my secret dungeon in the basement and have weeks of fun torturing them using every medical device imaginable and THEN go to church and praise God!

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

hey dear brother, no fair, you can not steal my techniques in dealing with evil doers.

Now I will have to be creative and invent some new plan.
by the way do you have a woodchipper that I can borrow??
:highfive

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Wait till they come and and yell, "I have an Axe and 2 38s!"

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That is the same basic idea as making as much noise as possible moving back the slides and knocking the clips in. I also told my wife I would then say (just loud enough for anyone in the house to hear) "Ok, formation 32. Just like we did in Guatemala. Ready, 3, 2, 1, Go!"

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I am not UPC.
God told the israelites to kill all those people that were intheir land. The people disobeyed and let the Philistines live. Hmmmmmm.......

The war in Afganatain was to stop Osama from killing more Americans. If we kill in self defense and do not shed innocent blood we are in the clear.

Oh, for those of you who have guns in your homes, I do not have a gun in my home. However, I have 4 man eating cats in my house trailer. I am innocent of murder my cats ate the thief. I am blameless. :happydance
deafdriscoll the youngest leads the assualt.
casper the oldest male cat ordered it.
rejik the oldest female struck with a vengence.
Leo the the other female ripped the thiefs arms off.
true story Do we need a poll to decide if this is true? :heeheehee

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No,just let me know where I can get some cats like that.

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You can find cats like that in a old deserted barn. if they bite your hand that means it is better than a dog to teach to protect your home. :heeheehee

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Thou shalt not kill (murder is the correct interpretation).

What is murder?

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought", and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). As the loss of a human being inflicts enormous grief upon the individuals close to the victim, as well as the fact that the commission of a murder is highly detrimental to the good order within society, most societies both present and in antiquity have considered it a most serious crime worthy of the harshest of punishment. In most countries, a person convicted of murder is typically given a long prison sentence, possibly a life sentence where permitted, and in some countries, the death penalty may be imposed for such an act — though this practice is becoming less common.[1] In most countries, there is no statute of limitations for murder (no time limit for prosecuting someone for murder). A person who commits murder is called a murderer .[2]


That is what we as individuals need to focus on. If called to serve, serve in a capacity that you feel that you can with a clean conscience. For example, in the Med Corp, Engineering, or other position that does not demand direct conflict.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Since my wife is the firearms aficianado in our home, this is probably the last scene that any perp breaking into our home would see before they saw lights out for the very last time:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/pic...pictureid=1148

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

Amen.

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You're right. And I agree about "family." It is a tough issue to really hammer down and that is why I've always thought that any statements on this topic ought to be rather open ended.

Personally, I'd like nothing more than to take the high road and adopt an entirely pacifistic stance. However, I would still need someone to "take up the sword" on my behalf (Romans 13:3-4 & etc.). So, what kind of relationship do I have with the one who does "bear the sword?" Should I pay his salary? Provide his medical care when he gets injured in battle? Should I contribute toward the cost of his sword?

If we are to follow Romans 13 here, then we do all of the above. We do all of the above anyway just because we're American taxpayers. The hypotheticals can start to add up quickly, too. What would you do and how far would you go to stop a Columbine type of attack? What if you were a teacher in the school and you had the chance to jump one of the shooters? Would you use his gun to stop the other shooter?

We live in a dangerous world. Unless we are we willing to get into a quiet and orderly line leading to the gas chambers, we will have to participate in the fight at some level.

Re: UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
 

You're Brad Pitt?

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I would hope folks would understand the difference in murder and killing to protect family and country. There is a huge difference AND responsiblity.

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TV has killed MORE spiritually in the home than guns ever have physically.


That resolution is going to be hotly debated I suppose. Much like TV.

Im not sure on this one. I had no doubt on TV. Vote it DOWN! Unfortunately the idiotic resolution passed

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Nothing ever gets thought through or receives the deliberation it deserves. All it takes is for one of the "Chosen Class" to endorse an idea and no one else will seriously question it and the sheeple will go along.

That's how all of the previous "TV Resolutions" were passed outlawing television ministry. Ironically, that's how the latest "TV Resolution" was passed as well. It's not the issue at stake that anyone has in mind. It's how they will be perceived by their peers. So, the safest path is to take your cue from the "Platform." It's what we tell our saints. It's exactly what the preachers do as well.

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:thumbsup

The sixth commandment says, "You shall not murder" (Deuteronomy 5:17 ESV).

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I have never worked with a picture on this site.I hopethis works.
Oh, Randy does your wife who is in the picture have a gun carrying sister?
Will you introduce me?

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Funny you say this... I wouldn't just take someone's life just on a whim. I would if someone came in my home to harm me or my family. I definitely would if I were in war and someone was shooting at me or wanting to harm me. In the military way of life and war you are trained in such a way that you don't think you just react to your training. So I wouldn't think that killing would be wrong. It's interesting that the UPC ministers will pray for the troops and even the ones out of their assembly, but taking a hardline stance against defending themselves in battle and taking lives is weird to me.

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That isn't my wife in the pic but it IS how she would look to anyone trying to invade our home -and would be the last thing they saw.

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Well said, RW

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To bad Stephan wasn't packing a 44 magnum ala dirty Harry.He could have turned out the lites of some of those rock throwing ...........................................