Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

reading Romans chapter 8 atm

It says anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
We need his Spirit to be raised from the dead in the resurrection. Also, we have to be led by the Spirit of God to be a son of God.

I think we need the HG to be saved. I think we know we have the HG because we spoke in tongues. But after that, we have to be led by the Spirit of God to overcome the deeds of the flesh to stay saved.

How can 3 steppers change their minds and become 1 steppers? do they think that you receive two different kinds of the Spirit of God? one to be saved and another to be filled?

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Good to know what you think. Jehovahs witnesses think...Mormons think....

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

whatever

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Amanah, Converts to One Step thought do not believe salvation occurrs apart from the Holy Spirit. In fact it must be recognized the Holy Spirit is active in the hearts of all who come to Christ.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

PCI Lite

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

The way I see it,there is no difference in receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized with The Holy Ghost.I don't see a distinction between the two. If I understand 1 COR. 12:13 it is by one Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Anyone who studies Acts chapters 2, 10, and 11 should see that various expressions are used to refer to the same experience. There is no scripture that says the Spirit "baptism" is different from receiving the Holy Ghost. The Bible does not teach that there are two classes of Christians; some Spirit-filled, some not. However, if you have really received the Holy Ghost, the fruit of the Spirit should be evident in your life.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Exactly.

I believe that anyone who genuinely receives Jesus by faith as Lord and Savior can only do so if the Spirit is working in his heart. At the point of conversion, he is "indwelt" by the Spirit.

However, there can be subsequent "fillings" or "baptisms" in the Spirit after their conversion. I do not believe that tongues are a requirement for salvation.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

without the HG seal of approval (tongues as evidence) the deal is off.
the HG seals the deal.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

stay steadfast amanah :-)

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

There is no mention of tongues as an evidence of spirit baptism in scripture. I see nothing mentioned by any apostle, teacher, or Jesus that mentions this. There are three or four instances where people receive the Holy Ghost and that happened over a very long period of years and years. Each time tongues was mentioned is was because this was a new people group who were receiving the spirit and each time there was an apostle present. Other than those instances, there is no other mention in scripture of tongues ever accompanying the Holy Spirit and many thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people were saved. If fact, the whole world changed and the gospel spread like wildfire and there is no mention of people seeking this evidence.

Amanah, the AOG, COG, and most other pentecostal groups teach that the spirit baptism is subsequent and a "second blessing" after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit at conversion. The idea that the "initial evidence" was required for receiving the holy spirit has not been a widespread teaching of pentecostalism.

This all started with the holiness methodist who taught of a second blessing that happened after conversion called "entire sanctification" Many of these folks carried that idea over to the new movement that was the beginning of pentecostalism. They taught of a second blessing called the "baptism of the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues" that was for empowerment or for the gifts. There was later a split between the holiness methodist and the "baptism of the holy ghost" folks and that split resulted in the beginning of the pentecostal movement. The pentecostals didn't want there to be a "third" blessing because that was just getting way to far from scripture. I think this was around the time that the AOG was formed.

This is all documented and once you trace the roots and the thinking of the people during that time period it is very easy to see how folks were looking for a power that would prove that they were the "real" christians.

We cannot just accept that the baptism of the holy ghost IS the same as the indwelling of the holy spirit at conversion. Even among pentecostals it never was meant to be believed that way.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Nobody believes that.

And again, nobody has made this statement.


Agreed :thumbsup Hold true to your convictions.

Amanah, here is the twist your going to run into here on the forum. People like me and you and kclee and others believe that speaking in tongues is "evidence" of one being baptized in the Spirit. As you see from the statements quoted above, some will twist that around to make it look like you believe that the "speaking in tongues" is "salvational", when its not, its the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

While some here, such as Delta, will legitimatly debate whether tongues is evidence or not, others will try to box you in and brand you with "tongues = salvation". Don't fall for it.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

That's a fine line, IMO, Scotty.

If you have NOT the spirit of Christ, you are none of His. (Romans 8:9)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: (John 16:13)

It looks like a salvational issue to me. Perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. Tongues is the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost. I don't see how we are able to separate the two. Actually, I've never understood that.

I believe that you cannot be saved without the Word and without His Spirit. The Spirit leads and guides, the Word sets you free.

On another note, the "second blessing" view is totally bogus and has no scripture to support it.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Scotty, it looks to me like Amanah is calling the holy spirit AND baptism of the holy spirit the same thing. While I could agree, I am on a totally opposite side of the argument.

I just wanted to bring up the point that very few pentecostals believe that holy ghost indwelling and holy ghost baptism are the same thing.

Holy Ghost baptism has always been seen as a second blessing among most in the pentecostal world. However, among pentecostal three-steppers they do not make a distinction between the two and require "tongues" as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit and therefore a REQUIREMENT for new birth.

Here is a great debate by David Bernard and one of my favorite calvinist debators, James White. DB lays out his position that is very similar to Amanah's. There are five videos total.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-bD...eature=related

I am very familiar with Amanah's position because I believed the same thing for 27 years.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

I'm sure you don't understand what I am saying as we have usually agreed on this topic in the past.

My belief is that one must recieve the Holy Ghost to be saved. A sign or "evidence" of one recieving the Holy Ghost is speaking in other tongues.

My point was that what some here attempt to do is turn it around to say that "speaking in tongues" is the catalyst for salvation. They like to say that we encourage others to pray or seek "tongues" for salvation when in fact we encourage others to pray or seek the "Holy Ghost". Tongues will come as a "result" of being filled.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Yes, that is how I view it as well.

But, Delta, what difference does that really make? It really is and should be - what does the Word of God say about it?

My husband was raised with the "second blessing" teaching (COG) and today he believes that teaching is erroneous.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Okay,, yes, I understand you now. This is how I explain that - We don't teach to seek the gift, but seek the Giver. Seeking the Giver will result in receiving the gift. That's how I explain it. Are we on the same page?

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

I would agree that it is totally bogus but not nearly as bogus as the "initial evidence" doctrine.

To me, the best way to characterize it is to say that we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion or new birth (yes some folks connect this to speaking in tongues but if you come to my church you will meet many people who have the holy spirit who have never spoke in tongues) and that the gifts of the spirit are available today in a believers life. That may include tongues, teaching, word of knowledge, gift of healing, ministry, etc.

There is no normative experience in teh new testament that points to tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. This is why the pentecostals of old always tied speaking in tongues in with "the baptism" because in their mind that is separate from the infilling of the holy spirit.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

When you receive the Holy Ghost, you speak with tongues as evidence.
God begins to work in your life before you receive the HG.
You will repent as the Spirit of God convicts you.
But when you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
which is the earnest of our inheritance, you speak with tongues.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Well, I certainly don't agree with you. If God shows me something else, I'll get back with you on it. LOL!

God has been timely and very precise on every minute detail from the beginning. I don't see there being two views of anything in the Word, i.e. steps or second blessing, etc.

IMO, these things are contrived by men who cannot figure out what God is doing, come to the last frontier and cannot walk by faith and so they stop and form a religion and/or religious belief to explain it all - from their perspective.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

:highfive

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

:thumbsup

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Amanah,

the argument is that the bible does not say that a person will speak in tongues when they receive the holy ghost.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Are you saying that the only way you can have the Holy Ghost is by tongues?

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

:highfive

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

I agree. The problem is that we all are reading the same bible and come to different conclusions for a variety of reasons.

If I believed that tongues was the actual evidence of the Holy Spirit then I would believe the way you do too. I cannot believe in the second blessing stuff and is the reason why I distance myself from all pentecostals not just oneness. I believe the second blessing doctrine leads to a bunch of mess up folks trying to become more and more spiritual based on their works.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

See, here we go. No.

The only way you can have the Holy Ghost is by the grace of God. Our belief is that when one is filled with the Holy Ghost they will speak in other tongues.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Do you have any scriptural evidence?

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

I am at work atm, I will provide scripture as soon as I am able.

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Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

PO, why is it that you think you have some greater knowledge or understanding than others? This is what I constantly run into with pentecostals that it doesn't matter what proof they are shown it all comes down to the revelation that God has given them or their experience. I have no reason to be against the "initial evidence" doctrine. I believed it my whole life but mainly because I had been in an environment where I had seen many things with my own eyes that I couldn't explain away easily.

Just using the language that says, "if God shows me something else" would worry me. We are to study and learn from the scripture not from our heart and emotions.

I believe you are sincere and from all your post that I have read I would consider you a christian and saved.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Well, lets see. The argument is very weak based on scripture alone.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

The bible says in Acts 10 that the Jewish believers knew the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost (evidence) because they heard them speak with tongues. Since it was the first tell-tale indication it is called INITIAL evidence. It was never said to be ONGOING EVIDENCE. FRUIT of the Spirit is ongoing evidence. Although they also heard the gentiles magnifying God, tongues was the one thing common in instances where we are given information as to what occurred when people were Spirit filled.

You guys know this is our answer. Why encompass this same old same old mountain all the time? If you disagree, then fine. But you already know why we believe this. No other verse in the entire bible so closely refers to what occurs immediately upon Spirit Baptism as this.

In Acts 15:8, the Jewish believers repeated the same thing saying what they experienced in Acts 2 was experienced by the Gentiles in Acts 10. They meant TONGUES. TONGUES and MAGNIFYING GOD were the evidence. Now, everyone knows you do not necessarily have the Holy Ghost just because you magnify God. Sinners can magnify God. So tongues are in focus here.

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

DELTA,
it's IMPLICIT, get with the program!

Re: Need the HG speaking in tongues to be saved
 

They result in a lot of good. Maybe not to the people arguing back and forth but I meet and I have worked with many people who have come out of pentecostalism. Many of them, including myself, once believed very strongly about certain things.

My former pastor has led hundreds out and I have walked beside many friends and we have discussed and worked through these issues with one another. We had so many issues and problems and I look back on that group and I see strong christian believers and people who have come through a lot to get out of pentecosalism.

Scotty, there are good folks and good things in pentecost. I know both the good and bad side of pentecost. While I can accept them as brothers and sisters I cannot be a part of them and their beliefs because I don't believe them. It is as simple as that.